Technical Breeding Tips and Advice

[Saga Felix]

Looked up the Punnett Squares that Bea mentioned here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square

-And I've ofc used them all along, just didn't know there was this name for them

I highly recommend them, btw. THE great way to visualize Mendelian Inheritance.

-Saga

[Aurore Dreamscape]

(09-15-2012 11:41 AM)Saga Felix Wrote:  Looked up the Punnett Squares that Bea mentioned here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punnett_square

-And I've ofc used them all along, just didn't know there was this name for them

I highly recommend them, btw. THE great way to visualize Mendelian Inheritance.

-Saga

I read that article on Punnett squares & have a slight headache,lol. I would love to see an actual example of how you use these for breeding kittycats. I'm still pretty new and trying to wrap my mind around the whole thing.

[Tad Carlucci]

Example.

Take two cats. One shows Bengal Sorrel. The other shows Cream Tabby.

For the "pure" squares we need to know that the Bengal Sorrel hides Burmese Blue and the Cream Tabby hides Abyssinian Lilac.

Make a 2x2 square. Label the columns Bengal Sorrel and Burmese Blue. Label the rows Cream Tabby and Abyssinian Lilac.
For each block in the square, check Saga's chart. In that block, the Dominant row or column name hides the Recessive column or row name.
So you get the top row (Cream Tabby) with one block "Bengal Sorrel hiding Cream Tabby" and the other "Burmese Blue hiding Cream Tabby"
and the bottom row (Abyssinian Lilac) with one block "Bengal Sorrel hiding Abyssinian Lilac" and the other "Burmese Blue hiding Abyssinian Lilac"
Count the results. You get that for that pairing, you have 50% (2 in 4) odds the offspring will be Bengal Sorrel and 50% (2 in 4) odds the offspring will be Burmese Blue.

The real power of this sort of analysis is when you have multiple offspring and/or multiple parents and don't know what the hidden values are. By using the rules (simple: dominant shows, recessive does not), you can often work out what one, or even more, of the hidden values MUST be.

While it can be instructive to do it on paper until you're comfortable with it, many of us do all this in our heads when reading a Pedigree page. We often can't tell exactly WHAT those hidden values are, but we usually can determine the upper-limit (which is why you often see me saying "or better" to indicate I'm not sure of the exact value, but know it can't be more dominant than what I say).

You'll want to be able to do this sort of analysis quickly because, many times, you'll see a claim that a specimen carries a certain trait (without the "or better" qualification) when, if you know how it works, and can see the Pedigree, you can plainly see the claim is false.

An example of a false claim would be a Bengal Sorrel named "Seal Lynx Offspring" where Grandmother on Dad's side actually was a Seal Lynx, Grandfather on Dad's side was Bengal Sorrel, and Dad is a Bengal Sorrel. Mom is Cream Tabby. Mom can NEVER have passed Bengal Sorrel, so that must have come from Dad. That means Dad (who definitely hides Seal Lynx, or better) CAN NOT have ALSO passed Seal Lynx. The "Seal Lynx Offspring" might be technically correct, but is a FALSE CLAIM because it is IMPOSSIBLE to obtain Seal Lynx from the grandchild Bengal Sorrel box being offered for sale. The correct claim for this box would be "Hides Cream Tabby, or better." If this is your box and you're looking to pass the Seal Lynx (or better) you can clearly see Dad has, turn the Bengal Sorrel grandchild in for the store credits .. you want to see a Cream Tabby offspring .. it will be "Cream Tabby hiding Seal Lynx, or better" and you can PROVE it!

---

Which brings to mind a real tip:

Pay attention to the ages.

If you see a box offered for sale and think it might hide something interesting, look at the parent's ages and even the grandparent's ages. If that thing you're looking for was introduced into the game AFTER the parents, or grandparents, were born, it's extremely unlikely (even, often, impossible) for that thing to be present.

An example would be a new eye trait introduced for, say, Halloween in a Special Collection Cat. It's Christmastime and you're thinking you'd like to try to get that new eye trait. Look at the Pedigree. If you can see one of those Special Collection Cats, it's Possible. But, you don't see that. What you see is the parents are young enough, but all four grandparents ages indicate the MUST have been born BEFORE the Halloween Specials appeared. So, even though Grandma's name indicates she's a Halloween Special offspring, that's clearly a false claim because she's too old!

[Aurore Dreamscape]

Thanks, Tad! It really helps me to be able to see it in writing with the actual traits! I'm slowly realizing how all this works :-)

[Kayleigh McMillan]

(09-15-2012 01:13 PM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  Example.

Take two cats. One shows Bengal Sorrel. The other shows Cream Tabby.

For the "pure" squares we need to know that the Bengal Sorrel hides Burmese Blue and the Cream Tabby hides Abyssinian Lilac.

Make a 2x2 square. Label the columns Bengal Sorrel and Burmese Blue. Label the rows Cream Tabby and Abyssinian Lilac.
For each block in the square, check Saga's chart. In that block, the Dominant row or column name hides the Recessive column or row name.
So you get the top row (Cream Tabby) with one block "Bengal Sorrel hiding Cream Tabby" and the other "Burmese Blue hiding Cream Tabby"
and the bottom row (Abyssinian Lilac) with one block "Bengal Sorrel hiding Abyssinian Lilac" and the other "Burmese Blue hiding Abyssinian Lilac"
Count the results. You get that for that pairing, you have 50% (2 in 4) odds the offspring will be Bengal Sorrel and 50% (2 in 4) odds the offspring will be Burmese Blue.

The real power of this sort of analysis is when you have multiple offspring and/or multiple parents and don't know what the hidden values are. By using the rules (simple: dominant shows, recessive does not), you can often work out what one, or even more, of the hidden values MUST be.

While it can be instructive to do it on paper until you're comfortable with it, many of us do all this in our heads when reading a Pedigree page. We often can't tell exactly WHAT those hidden values are, but we usually can determine the upper-limit (which is why you often see me saying "or better" to indicate I'm not sure of the exact value, but know it can't be more dominant than what I say).

You'll want to be able to do this sort of analysis quickly because, many times, you'll see a claim that a specimen carries a certain trait (without the "or better" qualification) when, if you know how it works, and can see the Pedigree, you can plainly see the claim is false.

An example of a false claim would be a Bengal Sorrel named "Seal Lynx Offspring" where Grandmother on Dad's side actually was a Seal Lynx, Grandfather on Dad's side was Bengal Sorrel, and Dad is a Bengal Sorrel. Mom is Cream Tabby. Mom can NEVER have passed Bengal Sorrel, so that must have come from Dad. That means Dad (who definitely hides Seal Lynx, or better) CAN NOT have ALSO passed Seal Lynx. The "Seal Lynx Offspring" might be technically correct, but is a FALSE CLAIM because it is IMPOSSIBLE to obtain Seal Lynx from the grandchild Bengal Sorrel box being offered for sale. The correct claim for this box would be "Hides Cream Tabby, or better." If this is your box and you're looking to pass the Seal Lynx (or better) you can clearly see Dad has, turn the Bengal Sorrel grandchild in for the store credits .. you want to see a Cream Tabby offspring .. it will be "Cream Tabby hiding Seal Lynx, or better" and you can PROVE it!

---

Which brings to mind a real tip:

Pay attention to the ages.

If you see a box offered for sale and think it might hide something interesting, look at the parent's ages and even the grandparent's ages. If that thing you're looking for was introduced into the game AFTER the parents, or grandparents, were born, it's extremely unlikely (even, often, impossible) for that thing to be present.

An example would be a new eye trait introduced for, say, Halloween in a Special Collection Cat. It's Christmastime and you're thinking you'd like to try to get that new eye trait. Look at the Pedigree. If you can see one of those Special Collection Cats, it's Possible. But, you don't see that. What you see is the parents are young enough, but all four grandparents ages indicate the MUST have been born BEFORE the Halloween Specials appeared. So, even though Grandma's name indicates she's a Halloween Special offspring, that's clearly a false claim because she's too old!

Wow these are mega important explanations and tips indeed!
This thread becomes a must read for every new breeder, I think.
Very valuable

[Tad Carlucci]

In the above I used a father Bengal Sorrel hiding Seal Lynx, or better.

Often, Charm will purchase a box like this and turn to me asking, since she has no Seal Lynx, what she should breed it to. I turn to Saga's charts.

First, I ask Charm is she has any Flame Lynx, Ebony Silver, or Cream Lynx. Of course not! Drat. That would make life SO much easier.

So, time for a fallback. Her first reaction is often to start at the bottom and work up. She has a Oci Blue and that'll pick up (hide) the Seal Lynx. But that Oci Blue probably has better things to be doing .. like making MORE Oci Blue!

I, on the other hand, believe you should always allow room for abject failure. You all KNOW how you absolutely NEED a Girl and, box after box, all you get is a Boy? Well, don't paint yourselves into a corner. Leave room for failure!

So, there's that lousy Cream Tabby rescue kitty. That's PURR-fect! It's more recessive than Bengal Sorrel, and there's a LOT more recessive stuff below it. So, I tell her to use that lousy Cream Tabby and jump for joy if she gets Cream Tabby (or better).

Often, she will. But sometimes they're all BOYS! (Oh MAN! Not AGAIN!)

Cream Tabby to the RESCUE!

All those boys are "Cream Tabby hiding Seal Lynx, or better". So even though her "Bengal Sorrel hiding Seal Lynx, or better" just aged out she can try again! All she needs is a girl more recessive than Cream Tabby.

If she'd have gone with her first instinct and used her Oci Blue, she'd be forced to use something more dominant than Oci Blue .. and would have no way of telling which boxes at that second generation carry Oci Blue and which carry Seal Lynx. She's facing 50/50 odds not only of never producing Seal Lynx, but of totally and utterly failing by completely losing that Seal Lynx gene altogether .. never to be seen again!

So, think about it .. when she gets a BOY (darn!) she can immediately birth it and find a girl more recessive than Cream Tabby. Suddenly she has TWO lines cooking to get a Girl hiding Seal Lynx to breed back and expose that Seal Lynx. For a couple weeks, things are cooking twice as fast. Then three times, four, ... eight until she finally gets some girls.

But then, don't tear down all those lines .. get more girls! Each time you do, switch her in with a boy hiding Seal Lynx. It won't be long before she has four or more lines where both mom and dad hide Seal Lynx .. that's FOUR (or more) dips into the 1-in-4-odds well, per week. Odds are, within a week or two she'll have her first Seal Lynx showing, and can start swapping out "hiding" for showing .. upping her odds to 1-in-2-per-dip-in-the-well until she's got Seal Lynx girls going with Seal Lynx boys and is cranking out Seal Lynx with 1-in-1 odds!

You all wondered how come some breeders seem to be able to crank out "new" stuff so quickly while most of you are struggling. Now you know. All it takes is a little planning, and the funds to feed 'em all! (The Cattery eliminates prim costs .. USE IT! .. it will save you a fortune when you're cranking 8 lines looking to finally get those "showing" offspring.)

---

One more tip, then I'm back to counting (other-breedable) offspring .. no explanation, just pointing at the above ..

ALTs are Good Things!

[dakillakm Resident]

(09-15-2012 01:13 PM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  Example.

Take two cats. One shows Bengal Sorrel. The other shows Cream Tabby.

For the "pure" squares we need to know that the Bengal Sorrel hides Burmese Blue and the Cream Tabby hides Abyssinian Lilac.

Make a 2x2 square. Label the columns Bengal Sorrel and Burmese Blue. Label the rows Cream Tabby and Abyssinian Lilac.
For each block in the square, check Saga's chart. In that block, the Dominant row or column name hides the Recessive column or row name.
So you get the top row (Cream Tabby) with one block "Bengal Sorrel hiding Cream Tabby" and the other "Burmese Blue hiding Cream Tabby"
and the bottom row (Abyssinian Lilac) with one block "Bengal Sorrel hiding Abyssinian Lilac" and the other "Burmese Blue hiding Abyssinian Lilac"
Count the results. You get that for that pairing, you have 50% (2 in 4) odds the offspring will be Bengal Sorrel and 50% (2 in 4) odds the offspring will be Burmese Blue.

The real power of this sort of analysis is when you have multiple offspring and/or multiple parents and don't know what the hidden values are. By using the rules (simple: dominant shows, recessive does not), you can often work out what one, or even more, of the hidden values MUST be.

While it can be instructive to do it on paper until you're comfortable with it, many of us do all this in our heads when reading a Pedigree page. We often can't tell exactly WHAT those hidden values are, but we usually can determine the upper-limit (which is why you often see me saying "or better" to indicate I'm not sure of the exact value, but know it can't be more dominant than what I say).

You'll want to be able to do this sort of analysis quickly because, many times, you'll see a claim that a specimen carries a certain trait (without the "or better" qualification) when, if you know how it works, and can see the Pedigree, you can plainly see the claim is false.

An example of a false claim would be a Bengal Sorrel named "Seal Lynx Offspring" where Grandmother on Dad's side actually was a Seal Lynx, Grandfather on Dad's side was Bengal Sorrel, and Dad is a Bengal Sorrel. Mom is Cream Tabby. Mom can NEVER have passed Bengal Sorrel, so that must have come from Dad. That means Dad (who definitely hides Seal Lynx, or better) CAN NOT have ALSO passed Seal Lynx. The "Seal Lynx Offspring" might be technically correct, but is a FALSE CLAIM because it is IMPOSSIBLE to obtain Seal Lynx from the grandchild Bengal Sorrel box being offered for sale. The correct claim for this box would be "Hides Cream Tabby, or better." If this is your box and you're looking to pass the Seal Lynx (or better) you can clearly see Dad has, turn the Bengal Sorrel grandchild in for the store credits .. you want to see a Cream Tabby offspring .. it will be "Cream Tabby hiding Seal Lynx, or better" and you can PROVE it!

---

Which brings to mind a real tip:

Pay attention to the ages.

If you see a box offered for sale and think it might hide something interesting, look at the parent's ages and even the grandparent's ages. If that thing you're looking for was introduced into the game AFTER the parents, or grandparents, were born, it's extremely unlikely (even, often, impossible) for that thing to be present.

An example would be a new eye trait introduced for, say, Halloween in a Special Collection Cat. It's Christmastime and you're thinking you'd like to try to get that new eye trait. Look at the Pedigree. If you can see one of those Special Collection Cats, it's Possible. But, you don't see that. What you see is the parents are young enough, but all four grandparents ages indicate the MUST have been born BEFORE the Halloween Specials appeared. So, even though Grandma's name indicates she's a Halloween Special offspring, that's clearly a false claim because she's too old!

In reference to Tad's last point: It would be enormously helpful if there could be a thread or a chart or something for us newer breeders that shoes what came out around what time. I have actually had this thought considering a certain cat, trying to figure out what it could hide, and unsure of when certain traits came out. Just a slightly unrelated request

[Sara Franco]

(09-15-2012 02:32 PM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  One more tip, then I'm back to counting (other-breedable) offspring .. no explanation, just pointing at the above ..

ALTs are Good Things!

Thanks for the valuable info , But I didn't get the quoted line so I'm wondering why alts are good for breeding? I definitely have alts like anyone else but never used them for breeding unless there is a "one per avatar" special edition .
And I couldn't just skip it as I'm a curious kitty .

[Tad Carlucci]

Use them, for example, to segregate your Cattery. It's a lot easier to remember that those eight lines, and their boxes, are for a specific project, and not mix in strays or accidentally pair off an important breeder, if you have to go to the hassle of sending them in-world and passing them to someone else.

---

Another use: say you have a lot of boxes you want to keep for the future .. say, as a "seed bank" in case things to terribly wrong, or you goof, and you suddenly find you don't HAVE that eye gene you want to try crossing onto your Seal Lynx line. Well, if your seed bank is on another ALT, and in the Cattery, you gain: web access; and the safest possible storage (by definition you can NOT lose a box there unless EVERYONE loses EVERYTHING due to a server wipe-out).

---

Say you have some lives you want to keep, but don't want to feed. Pass them to an ALT and put them in the Cattery but never purchase food for them. In a year or two, when those special cats have become "rare" and "desirable" to collectors, you can pull them out, feed them for a week, and have a healthy specimen to offer for sale, having saved a pile on food costs along the way. Since they're over there, instead of over here, you don't have to see all those sick kitties. Plus, you get web access, and the safest possible storage, just as you do for your seed bank.

---

Say you're paranoid and don't want anyone to be able to see what you're working one. Using an ALT, if you never de-cloak her, you can claim that you simply "purchased" the cat and nobody can prove differently.

[Sara Franco]

(09-15-2012 09:37 PM)dakillakm Resident Wrote:  In reference to Tad's last point: It would be enormously helpful if there could be a thread or a chart or something for us newer breeders that shoes what came out around what time. I have actually had this thought considering a certain cat, trying to figure out what it could hide, and unsure of when certain traits came out. Just a slightly unrelated request

I wish the same, a list of what all special editions passed and at least the release date of the traits that were released at the same time as some specials without being limited, Like the Foxies with the Collobor88.
For the breeders who missed them and also for the ones with bad memories .

---

(09-15-2012 09:48 PM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  Use them, for example, to segregate your Cattery. It's a lot easier to remember that those eight lines, and their boxes, are for a specific project, and not mix in strays or accidentally pair off an important breeder, if you have to go to the hassle of sending them in-world and passing them to someone else.

ah got it Thanks