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Supporting other breeders versus grandparent rule at auctions
02-26-2023, 07:52 AM
Post: #11
RE: Supporting other breeders versus grandparent rule at auctions
Hi there

Cat tales is one sim that has the 'grandparent' rule for the exact reasons said above. It is to stop cat 'flipping' and encourage people to produce their own lines. It encourages patrons to have fun learning about genetics and boosting their bought in cats with new twists. It is indeed, one grandparent, not four which allows for buying in a cat to boost your own lines.

There are exceptions.
New breeders get a 2-3 week 'parent pass' where they only need to bring cats with parents for two weeks so they have time to build up a line.
Our charity auction requires only parents.
A starter cat obviously has no parents so doesn't require any and most new traits come from a starter cat that someone owns and has bred so those cats are allowed.

Sim rules vary per sim, Cat tales requires a granny from experienced breeders.

Occasionally an auction can get no sales, but this is rare. I attend up to twenty a week on all the sims and have seen a lot of sales. Auctions are a chance to meet new people, learn about the cats and breeding, get advice and have some fun. If in doubt, come along and try one, there's no pressure. Smile You never know, you might enjoy it.
Lexi
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 Thanks given by: Songdog Woolley , Ellen Ireland , Delja Starchild , Vee Catnap , RinaNightshade Resident , Mirsoul Resident , Bea Shamrock , Beadnstone Jewell , Kikii Littlepaws , ellieXD18 Resident
03-10-2023, 12:04 PM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2023 02:24 PM by Kikii Littlepaws.)
Post: #12
RE: Supporting other breeders versus grandparent rule at auctions
I auction at Realm Breedables and Too Adorable, and none of my three auctions have a grandparent rule. I attend a load of auctions, in support of my friends who breed, and my friends who are auctioneers. I see future sales happen, because of course they do; the right buyer has to be in the audience for any given cat, and it may happen that they're not. Believe me when I say that most of the auctioneers out there feel terrible when a cat doesn't sell while the panel is active, but I strongly believe there is a lot more to supporting auctions, auctioneers, and patrons of auctions than just the buying and selling of cats. How many auctions have I gone to to see a new trait live? How many have I gone to where I've learned something new, whether I expected to or not?

As far as grandparent rules, I've come to feel that it's counter-productive in certain ways. While a new breeder may have time, if given a pass of 2-3 weeks without having to have grandparents, it doesn't necessarily encourage anything but hurrying up to backbreed so that one parent counts as a grandparent as well, especially if they are, like me, trying not to go over a limit of live cats. It doesn't encourage the exploration of "what happens if I pair this cat with this other cat" necessarily, nor does it help in any way to offset the costs of that breeding. And honestly, for me, it sometimes discourages me from buying cats at auction because I know that, as I count as an experienced breeder, that cat will produce boxes I can't bring to auction - where I make most of my sales. Instead, I'll have to pop open more boxes than I normally allow myself, and I'll wind up with 54 cats instead of my self-imposed limit of 30 just trying to earn back some of my investment into a nice cat. Of course, that's just my 2 cents on the matter, and I'm not trying to be controversial. It's up to each market/sim what they allow and don't, period. In real life, though, any breeder is going to sell whatever animal they produce if it's worthy of sale, regardless of how many generations of the line they own. *shrug*

Edited to add: I would also like to add that to me, 'cat flipping' is buying someone else's cat to turn around and sell that exact cat. It's not investing L$ into two parent cats, and then investing into their kibble, etc and selling their offspring. Whether your investment into your cats are L$ investments, investments of time perfecting a line, or both of those things, I think it's a good thing to see some return on investment. Wink

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 Thanks given by: Ellen Ireland , Shamu077 Resident , kittyclawz Resident , Eleanor8 Resident
03-11-2023, 08:42 AM
Post: #13
RE: Supporting other breeders versus grandparent rule at auctions
Kiki, that is exactly my dilemma. I enjoy buying and breeding other people's cats, whether I buy them at auction, or pick up a live kitty at a live table, but it is disappointing when I get a really great kitty and then I can't bring that one to auction - I have to wait until the next generation, and if it's a new trait, the value will have gone down by then. Thank you for pointing out that you have auctions without a grandparent rule!

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03-11-2023, 12:44 PM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2023 12:49 PM by Monavie Voight.)
Post: #14
RE: Supporting other breeders versus grandparent rule at auctions
I think this rule is very restrictive and reminds me too much of people trying to control the market. Who cares if someone did buy two cats and bred them to sell the baby?


(02-21-2023 03:22 PM)Ellen Ireland Wrote:  Here's a dilemma I've experienced often and I'd like to put this out here for discussion to see what others have to say about it.

I like to support other breeders, and I often buy other people's KittyCats, usually live ones at "love shacks" and other live tables, even though I have (just checked) 14,102 boxes in my online cattery, because we're a community and we should support each other. So, rather than popping a box and waiting, I buy someone else's cat instead.

Unfortunately, the result is often that my nicest cats do not meet the usual "grandparent rule" for auctions, requiring that the seller must own at least one of the grandparents.

What do you all think about the tension between supporting other breeders by buying their cats, and the customary grandparent rule at auctions? Would there be any creative solutions that we might be able to work out so that people don't have to choose?

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 Thanks given by: Kikii Littlepaws , Stenelaide Resident
03-11-2023, 01:14 PM
Post: #15
RE: Supporting other breeders versus grandparent rule at auctions
(03-11-2023 12:44 PM)Monavie Voight Wrote:  I think this rule is very restrictive and reminds me too much of people trying to control the market. Who cares if someone did buy two cats and bred them to sell the baby?

I understand Ellen's dilemma, but I don't think it's a matter of "who cares". It's great when you put two kitties together and get a wonderful baby, and it's understandable that you'd like to show it and maybe sell it. There are auctions that accept that and it's good, especially for new breeders.

There's another side to it I think. When you work with a project, it's a personal satisfaction to get the kitty you were hoping for, and for the smaller breeder this could mean months, maybe even a year. And if you want to keep that kitty, then with some luck at least one more week before you get another one like it that you can show and sell at an auction. It means time, money and effort, and auctions do well in supporting that breeder in my opinion.

It's not an either /or situation I think. There are different options open for the support of different breeding situations.

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03-16-2023, 06:57 AM (This post was last modified: 03-16-2023 07:36 AM by Shamu077 Resident.)
Post: #16
RE: Supporting other breeders versus grandparent rule at auctions
I don't like the grandparent rule either, since for me it means extra work just to present some of my best cats at an auction.

This is because I normally will sell my live grandparents on a love stand long before they are near retirement. The pedigree then shows the grandparents, which I bred, belong to someone else, and therefore violate this rule.

Of course I can search through my transactions and local chat going back months to years, to prove I bred and once owned the cat I bred. But why should I go to this extra work? Much easier to attend auctions where I only need to own one parent is the rule.

One way to fix this is for the public pedigrees to show the actual breeder. This was once the case, but KC removed that option because a few influential breeders or auctioneers didn't want the breeder name revealed. That was about 10 years ago, and the hide the breeder rule seems to be fixed in stone now. Callie can you comment on this?

Today, my partner owns many of my breeders so she can cuddle them. She can't breed them under her name, even though they are all my cats, or we run into this auction rule again. In some cases I have to buy back my cat, enter it in Torgans to show I am the owner, and leave the cat under my name until the auction is over. Then I sell them back to her for her cuddling (happiness raising) service. I have russian black lines going back to 2011, but if I tried to sell one of them at these restrictive auctions, it is likely I sold the grandparents years ago and would be unable to sell them.
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 Thanks given by: KashKave Resident , Arcadiamyst Resident , Bea Shamrock
03-16-2023, 09:44 AM
Post: #17
RE: Supporting other breeders versus grandparent rule at auctions
This is often the case for me too. I generally sell my breeders once their contribution to a line/project is done. I have *never* had an issue with this - I've never even been asked about it. If there was a question, it would be easy enough to provide a screenshot of the pedigree from my end showing that I bred the cat, but in our KittyCats community, I think most auctioneers know their patrons, and are able to trust. I like the grandparent rule for the most part, but would love to see more diverse types of auctions happening as well.

(03-16-2023 06:57 AM)Shamu077 Resident Wrote:  I don't like the grandparent rule either, since for me it means extra work just to present some of my best cats at an auction.

This is because I normally will sell my live grandparents on a love stand long before they are near retirement. The pedigree then shows the grandparents, which I bred, belong to someone else, and therefore violate this rule.

Of course I can search through my transactions and local chat going back months to years, to prove I bred and once owned the cat I bred. But why should I go to this extra work? Much easier to attend auctions where I only need to own one parent is the rule.

One way to fix this is for the public pedigrees to show the actual breeder. This was once the case, but KC removed that option because a few influential breeders or auctioneers didn't want the breeder name revealed. That was about 10 years ago, and the hide the breeder rule seems to be fixed in stone now. Callie can you comment on this?

Today, my partner owns many of my breeders so she can cuddle them. She can't breed them under her name, even though they are all my cats, or we run into this auction rule again. In some cases I have to buy back my cat, enter it in Torgans to show I am the owner, and leave the cat under my name until the auction is over. Then I sell them back to her for her cuddling (happiness raising) service. I have russian black lines going back to 2011, but if I tried to sell one of them at these restrictive auctions, it is likely I sold the grandparents years ago and would be unable to sell them.
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 Thanks given by: Arcadiamyst Resident , Eleanor8 Resident
03-16-2023, 11:35 AM
Post: #18
RE: Supporting other breeders versus grandparent rule at auctions
As a sim that does indeed have the grandparent rule (which has been in place since CatTales opened 6 years ago) we do understand the sale of parents, grandparents and even co-breeding. There is no need to swap cats back and forth, no need to worry about whether you own or don't own the parents and grands any longer. A simple screenshot of your pedigree will still show you as the breeder of the parents thus showing that at some point you also owned the grandparent. We have patrons that will post pictures of their pedigree at auction, and others that have been long-time patrons, we are aware that they cobreed with partners and/or friends.

The thinking behind this rule was to promote the work that goes into a line, how you got from point A to point B. There are so many traits within KittyCats that we encourage long term projects that are unique. Does that mean not to purchase from other breeders? Of course not, I do it all the time when I see something that I like and want to incorporate it into my own cattery (like that old eye that I no longer have, or a new one).

Now I realize this is not for everyone, KittyCats is something different for each of us. Some breed new traits, some breed old stuff. Some breed recessive, some breed dominant. Some do projects and long term stuff, others don’t. It is all up to each individual. And there are sims that include all of these and don’t have a grandparent rule. I guess what I am trying to say here, is have fun,breed what you love, and find that sim that you enjoy being at, rent a shop (or not), attend their auctions, make some friends be a part of that community

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Breed what you love and sell what you can bear to part with
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 Thanks given by: Arcadiamyst Resident , Bea Shamrock , Songdog Woolley , Shamu077 Resident
03-16-2023, 11:54 AM
Post: #19
RE: Supporting other breeders versus grandparent rule at auctions
Well said Mir, and to add to this it's really simple and costs nothing but a few seconds to prove you owned a granny.
Click your cat, open pedigree, it will say breeder YOU on the relevant granny. Take screenshot or gyazo and show the auctioneer.Smile

Cobreeders dont need proof, if someone is your partner, they can own a granny by defaultSmile Grannies in law lol

[Image: 11e4b4573eb668d653decd807d14159c.png]

Example proof. Note Vee owns the granny, I clearly bred it.
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03-16-2023, 12:08 PM
Post: #20
RE: Supporting other breeders versus grandparent rule at auctions
(03-16-2023 06:57 AM)Shamu077 Resident Wrote:  One way to fix this is for the public pedigrees to show the actual breeder. This was once the case, but KC removed that option because a few influential breeders or auctioneers didn't want the breeder name revealed. That was about 10 years ago, and the hide the breeder rule seems to be fixed in stone now. Callie can you comment on this?

A possible fix for this, would be when you are in the pedigree, the cats would show "Same breeder" or "Different breeder" in relevance to the cat. That would be a way to show everybody who the breeder is without showing who the breeder is?

On a similar point though, at CatTales, if you are breeding with someone else you just have to tell us that you are breeding with the person who happens to own the grandparent and it counts as having grandparents.

We had someone come to auction and it looked like they didn't even own the parents of the kitten in question. When asked about it, we found out it was bred by their breeding partner, and they do all of the breeding on their account rather than her's. So this still counts as having grandparents.
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