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Pedigree shocks.
02-01-2022, 01:08 AM
Post: #1
Pedigree shocks.
Having my Golden ticket pair just given birth to to a non golden ticket and knowing that this family history goes back four generations of GT brings up a question that I have asked but no one has been able to answer yet. Is the recessive gene (1) controlled by a random feature and (2) will this recessive gene have less influence over generations and (3) can a separate trait IE: the eyes effect or trigger the recessive gene of say the Fur trait or (4) maybe I am asking the wrong questions?Huh
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02-01-2022, 06:43 AM (This post was last modified: 02-01-2022 07:41 AM by Tad Carlucci.)
Post: #2
RE: Pedigree shocks.
1) Yes, precisely and constantly 1-in-2 odds.
2) At each generation the odds (WRT the starters) are 1-in-2 (kids), so 1-in-4 (grands) then 1-in-8 (great-grands) etc. This is for a given gene to be present. Note it can never be Zero chance.
3) No effect, ever. One allele, one trait. The only question is the number of values possible to assign to the starters. Note that start odds are (a) unknowable and (b) never relevant.
4) Probably since your phrasing implies an misunderstanding of the simplicity of the system.
To explain so you don't have to dig back a decade into the archives.

For a given trait, say 'Fur', each parent has exactly two values. Think of them as two numbers. For starters they are randomly assigned under some system (which we don't care about). For all other cats one value comes from the mother, the other from the father. One value will be larger (more dominant) or equal to the other. (As an implementation detail, which we don't care about, there is a third number whose value is either from the larger of the other two, or assigned as a Special Collection [paint job]. This third value has no effect, EVER. It simply is a way to represent what we see in-world when we look at the cat.)

When it comes time to breed, each parent, for each trait, selects one of the two values it has and passes the result to the offspring. The odds of choosing one value or the other are exactly 1-in-2.

Note there are non-breeding traits. such as 'Size', which have no genetic component and are randomly assigned under an unknown system we really don't care about.

So, given a female with values (F,f) and a male with (M,m) the offspring can be one of (F,M) (f,M) (F,m) or (f,m) each value-pair with exact, constant odds of 1-in-4 (1-in-2 taken twice). Whether the offspring shows F, f, M, or m, depends upon which of the four cases occurred, and which of the two values is domimant (numerically larger, in my model here). (If the values are the same, it does not matter, pick one. It is unknowable, and immaterial, which parent it came from in this case.)

[And, yes, I know, as an implementation detail, it's easier to use lesser-value-is-dominant, as we see in the charts, but it's more natural to use larger as I do so we can use > = < in the normal manner.]
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02-03-2022, 12:33 PM (This post was last modified: 02-03-2022 05:48 PM by ShannonSpoonhunter Resident.)
Post: #3
RE: Pedigree shocks.
(02-01-2022 01:08 AM)Pyro Nitely Wrote:  Having my Golden ticket pair just given birth to to a non golden ticket and knowing that this family history goes back four generations of GT brings up a question that I have asked but no one has been able to answer yet. Is the recessive gene (1) controlled by a random feature and (2) will this recessive gene have less influence over generations and (3) can a separate trait IE: the eyes effect or trigger the recessive gene of say the Fur trait or (4) maybe I am asking the wrong questions?Huh

You're overthinking it. It's really simple. Each cat has two fur traits, and when they breed, each parent passes on one of its two traits to their offspring, and the trait that is more dominant is the one that is visible in the offspring. That's it.

Cat A (Dad) shows golden ticket, hides fur X
Cat B (Mom) shows golden ticket, hides fur Y
If their baby, Cat C, shows golden ticket, there's no immediate way to tell if they:
1) Are showing Golden Ticket from mom, and hiding fur Y from dad
2) Are showing Golden Ticket from dad, and hiding fur X from mom
3) Inherited Golden Ticket from both parents, and don't have any other hiddens

There's no way to tell for sure with this particular cat, unless you breed it with a more recessive partner and the hidden pops out on one of the breedings.

If Cat C has a sibling (Cat D) who is also showing Golden Ticket, and you breed them together, and they have an offspring (Cat E) who is also showing Golden Ticket, since you don't know what C&D were hiding, you can't tell off the bat what E is hiding, either. If both C & D were pure golden ticket, then E will be, too. But if either of them were hiding X or Y from their parents, then they can pass that on just as easily as they can pass Golden Ticket. If you keep breeding this line, and happen to keep choosing cats that have a hidden, eventually you are likely to pair up two that throw their hidden at the same time, and then you'll see it.

I have a good example here. There's no way to tell from this pedigree whether this cat has a hidden fur, or, if so, what it is. For all I know, it is pure Russian black and maybe its parents were, too:
[Image: bfb36aacfe0be1bf6af80b13871d55d2.jpg]

However, this is its full sibling -- which means NEITHER of their parents are pure Russian black; they both have a hidden fur (maybe they both have Australian Mist Blue Marble, maybe one of them has something more recessive), but they clearly BOTH have a hidden fur that they've inherited, other than Russian Black, or else they wouldn't be able to produce this kitten:

[Image: ea240e3de12507ee5b7c3981ebc1bd57.jpg]

But notice in 15 births, they only managed to both throw their hidden at the same time exactly once:
[Image: 785c060948fa7233b90b230289e138e2.jpg]

So if they had done it zero times, I wouldn't have any way to know that they both have a hidden fur. But since they both have it, at least some of their Russian Black offspring have likely inherited it as their hidden trait. I have no way to know which ones, though. So if I pick two Russian blacks from this third generation at random and breed them together, and they have what would be fourth generation Russian Black offspring, I still can't be sure whether:
1) I happened to pick two that were pure
2) I happened to pick one that is pure, and one that is passing down a hidden to some of the fourth generation
3) I happened to pick two that both have a hidden fur, but they haven't ever gotten around to throwing it at the same time

If 2) or 3) are the case, then the same thing happens with the next generation, and so on. But it's all the same process that happens at breeding time: Each cat has two traits, and each parent passes one of its two traits on to its offspring, and the more dominant of the two is the visible one.
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