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With Gachas Being Banned, How Will Future KittyCatS! Be Released?
08-06-2021, 05:44 AM
Post: #21
RE: With Gachas Being Banned, How Will Future KittyCatS! Be Released?
Just my opinion, but I think the whole gatcha problem as sl or whoever sees it as a form of gambling. The need to keep spending money to get the rare.

Collection kitties sorta fall into that. How many ppl spend a bunch of money to get the whole collection, or to get sizes like megas?

I think that is the only way the whole gatcha thing can involve breeding. I just hope that KC can find work arounds to anything they throw at them.

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08-06-2021, 09:33 AM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2021 09:38 AM by Tad Carlucci.)
Post: #22
RE: With Gachas Being Banned, How Will Future KittyCatS! Be Released?
Considering breedables are a HUGE part of LL's cash flow, I doubt they'll make any large changes. My expectation would be that a one-per-customer, randonly chosen, rule and leaving the rest up to the player-to-player aftermarket would be where they end up.

The problem I always had with Gacha sales is that you depended upon the seller actually putting the 'rare' in the sales box. I have a feeling that, too often, they didn't. And many of the boxes were designed to make it impossible to check.

Charm's problem was that a number of times the "rare" was "junk". Her example to was that she'd bought a few to get the "rare" house she wanted and when she rezzed it, it didn't work. Missing parts, bad textures, and missing scripts.

ETA I don't see the actual breeding randomness as a problem is, at least for well-written products like KittyCats, the effects of randomness can be limited, even eliminated. For KittyCats, the only issues would be the starters, especially the special collections. Some breedables (I'm thinking of one in particular) are so badly done, I've always maintained they were simply ganbling systems and should always have been banned. I've even reported a couple, with statistical analysis to show they are pure random gambling, no matter what handwaving the original designed made. Those, I'd love to see simply banned.
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08-06-2021, 10:58 AM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2021 11:02 AM by Kikii Littlepaws.)
Post: #23
RE: With Gachas Being Banned, How Will Future KittyCatS! Be Released?
(08-04-2021 12:14 PM)Arwen Swordthain Wrote:  
(08-04-2021 06:03 AM)Kikii Littlepaws Wrote:  Collection kitties haven't previously been No Transfer, there was always swapping and trading and buying on the secondary market for all of them, but if you mean that this might have to change now, so that all collection cats are no transfer (unless permapet) then that is one valid agreement, but this would be a shame, b/c then it's going to be that much harder to get the one(s) you really want, and the trading has always been lots of fun. No transfer until rezzed would still fit the bill, though, b/c once rezzed, the cat is set with its costume and stats. ♥

Sorry to be devils advocate, even if its no transfer til rezzed you, the buyer, have still purchased something you have no idea what traits it will have so you have bought an unknown with a chance at something worthwhile. Even if you know the costume you can't know the breedable traits til its rezzed then only the starter ones not the hidden ones and a lot of us buy collections for the unknown hids, thats the fun for most of us.
The banning of gachas is about the intial purchase not the resale.

Don't apologize for being devil's advocate. Heart

Actually, this post of mine was supposed to have been edited to begin with, but somewhere along the way, my edit got lost. I had a lot of things going on at once, so my apologies!

As much as I have always gone in to buy Collection KittyCatS from the vendors knowing exactly what I was doing, the vendor itself is 'gacha', by the definition that you're paying for a completely random item. So I do suspect that that method may very well have to change. However, I honestly can't foresee life simulation, breedables, being entirely chucked or having to change. The entire issue seems to be in knowing what you are getting.

If you know you're buying a KittyCat, with very specific shown traits, and you're also informed that if you breed it it will have hidden traits to discover, this should, as far as I know (with my layman's knowledge) be allowable. After all, even before this announcement and policy change by Linden Lab, KittyCatS have always been marketed as a pet that can breed, not simply something to breed. Breeding is a possibility, not the sole intent of them. Otherwise, why would I have so many permapets to keep around to make my home feel like a home? Smile

ETA: I would also point out that particularly in KittyCatS case, the "unknowns" can quickly become knowns, as breeding is only random in one sense: does the parent cat pass shown or hidden. And I would submit also that this is an intended feature that buyers of KittyCatS are aware of ahead of time. Heart

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08-06-2021, 07:48 PM
Post: #24
RE: With Gachas Being Banned, How Will Future KittyCatS! Be Released?
Breedables I to don't see changing much. You are "paying for genesis cats" so if anything changes the "genesis" traited will be more controlled (maybe to new traits or current) as you buy them.. Traits are like DNA and you trace it thru a lineage, it's up to each of us to research what a cat "hides" and buy accordingly. So don't really see that change at all.

As to the collections that is more a gacha and we may see an actually paying for a "rare" costume which is what it's about. If you want to gamble go to a casino but if you buy a product you need to know "what" you are buying. So who knows, maybe to hop on the idea for every "genesis" cat you buy you get a "raffle" ticket that grants you a random costume to dress your kitty.

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08-06-2021, 10:39 PM
Post: #25
RE: With Gachas Being Banned, How Will Future KittyCatS! Be Released?
The problem is that it is not Linden Labs' choice. The policy has changed because of real world laws dealing with gambling and what is seen as gambling.

The law is basically this. What you buy must be what you see.

This is why banning of gachas is happening, because what you buy is NOT what you see. It might be in the picture, but am I getting a table, a chair, food? There is no way of knowing.

As far as kittycats go, the only problem I see is the collection cats. Even though we know what the costumes are ,we do not know what costume we will be getting. Nor do we know the size, etc...

For the starter cats. This can be easily worked around by giving the buyer the option of which fur they want. Size would have to be guaranteed, so probably "normal" size.

When buying a cat from the secondary markets, we KNOW what we are getting. We can see the cat. Know the gender, know the fur, know the size. We can even guess on the hiddens based on parents. But even if we could not know the hiddens, we still know we are buying a black and white chat 1 with silver genesis whiskers, etc... That is what we are buying, and receiving. Whatever that cat gives us, we are not actually buying. It is, in a sense, being given to us, thus, is not considered "gambling" as no money is being exchanged for the babies.

(08-06-2021 09:33 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  Considering breedables are a HUGE part of LL's cash flow, I doubt they'll make any large changes. My expectation would be that a one-per-customer, randonly chosen, rule and leaving the rest up to the player-to-player aftermarket would be where they end up.

The problem I always had with Gacha sales is that you depended upon the seller actually putting the 'rare' in the sales box. I have a feeling that, too often, they didn't. And many of the boxes were designed to make it impossible to check.

Charm's problem was that a number of times the "rare" was "junk". Her example to was that she'd bought a few to get the "rare" house she wanted and when she rezzed it, it didn't work. Missing parts, bad textures, and missing scripts.

ETA I don't see the actual breeding randomness as a problem is, at least for well-written products like KittyCats, the effects of randomness can be limited, even eliminated. For KittyCats, the only issues would be the starters, especially the special collections. Some breedables (I'm thinking of one in particular) are so badly done, I've always maintained they were simply ganbling systems and should always have been banned. I've even reported a couple, with statistical analysis to show they are pure random gambling, no matter what handwaving the original designed made. Those, I'd love to see simply banned.
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08-07-2021, 05:51 PM
Post: #26
RE: With Gachas Being Banned, How Will Future KittyCatS! Be Released?
Perhaps too much is being read into the issue. I just read into the Gacha issue.

The main issue is "complete-the-set" gachas where one must spend a random amount of time a money to collect an entire set of items which can them be combined into a new "rare" item. I've seen those and I've seen my grandson fall for their trap (lucily, his mom and I were able to stop him early on so he only spend a few cents). This is the type of gacha which Japan specifically outawed.

I can see, however, applying an abundance of caution and strictly limiting the use of randomization. I sell a gacha script, for instance, which I'd have no problem taking down, but the way it works is the odds of getting the item you want increase with each sale until you're guarenteed to get that item. This is because it works based upon the item inventory, not some set of odds and remote delivery system. The purchaser can look and see what is in the sales object.

I don't see any problem with Starters. The number of possibilties is strictly limited and well known. And few really care about what a Starter looks like.

As for Collections, the solution is simple: don't do random sales. Let the players choose. Then there is no "rare" determined by KittyCats! Instead, the rarity is determined by the players. A few will probably by one-of-each but most will probably go for a specific set (Wow! Look at that Rainbow fur!) making the boring (All Whites and pale greys?) version very rare, to the surprise and delight of those who purchased the full set. It's gonna end up like that in a few whiles, anyway, so, really, what's the difference if it starts out that way?
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08-08-2021, 12:57 PM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2021 12:59 PM by Arwen Swordthain.)
Post: #27
RE: With Gachas Being Banned, How Will Future KittyCatS! Be Released?
(08-06-2021 07:48 PM)Serena Stroikavskoi Wrote:  Breedables I to don't see changing much. You are "paying for genesis cats" so if anything changes the "genesis" traited will be more controlled (maybe to new traits or current) as you buy them.. Traits are like DNA and you trace it thru a lineage, it's up to each of us to research what a cat "hides" and buy accordingly. So don't really see that change at all.

As to the collections that is more a gacha and we may see an actually paying for a "rare" costume which is what it's about. If you want to gamble go to a casino but if you buy a product you need to know "what" you are buying. So who knows, maybe to hop on the idea for every "genesis" cat you buy you get a "raffle" ticket that grants you a random costume to dress your kitty.

The concern here is you don't which of 5 furs or 5 eyes you are getting. I had the idea in chat, that since with collection starters we are purchasing the costume so seperate vendors for those solves that that maybe regular starters could be sold with a "costume" as well, I thought it would be cute if that was an old Genesis Fur, so a Smokey costume but under its a regular Genesis starter just like the Collections. So Costume = Smokey, Genesis/Starter = Pearl II (or one of the current) hidden traits = unknown which LL seem to be saying is allowed. Same with the eyes. Then every so often switch up the "costumes".
(08-07-2021 05:51 PM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  Perhaps too much is being read into the issue. I just read into the Gacha issue.

The main issue is "complete-the-set" gachas where one must spend a random amount of time a money to collect an entire set of items which can them be combined into a new "rare" item. I've seen those and I've seen my grandson fall for their trap (lucily, his mom and I were able to stop him early on so he only spend a few cents). This is the type of gacha which Japan specifically outawed.

I can see, however, applying an abundance of caution and strictly limiting the use of randomization. I sell a gacha script, for instance, which I'd have no problem taking down, but the way it works is the odds of getting the item you want increase with each sale until you're guarenteed to get that item. This is because it works based upon the item inventory, not some set of odds and remote delivery system. The purchaser can look and see what is in the sales object.

I don't see any problem with Starters. The number of possibilties is strictly limited and well known. And few really care about what a Starter looks like.

As for Collections, the solution is simple: don't do random sales. Let the players choose. Then there is no "rare" determined by KittyCats! Instead, the rarity is determined by the players. A few will probably by one-of-each but most will probably go for a specific set (Wow! Look at that Rainbow fur!) making the boring (All Whites and pale greys?) version very rare, to the surprise and delight of those who purchased the full set. It's gonna end up like that in a few whiles, anyway, so, really, what's the difference if it starts out that way?

Its the fact that in their original FAQs LL stated they were taking further legal advice regarding breedables, naturally that had everyone a bit worried. They have now clarified that as long as we know what we are buying ie costume with collections then its ok so Gachas/random vendors or whatever you want to call them can't be used to sell cats either at the Mainstore or on the secondary markets.

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08-08-2021, 02:08 PM
Post: #28
RE: With Gachas Being Banned, How Will Future KittyCatS! Be Released?
(08-08-2021 12:57 PM)Arwen Swordthain Wrote:  They have now clarified that as long as we know what we are buying ie costume with collections then its ok so Gachas/random vendors or whatever you want to call them can't be used to sell cats either at the Mainstore or on the secondary markets.

I think you are saying what is "ok" is selling costumes with collections must not be in a Gacha like vendor, as is used now at the main store. So all new collections must allow individual selection and purchase of the costume color (the orange Cheetah with white spots), for example.

And also that random sizes for these costumed kitties can not be random. If you want a costumed collection cat in the Mega size, that would be another single purchase, perhaps at a higher price. Same with Rares - either charge more for the rare fur, or let the buyers decide what they think is rare by their own choice.

I can see a lot of Buy buttons on vendor boards now, not just Girl or Boy random box.
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08-09-2021, 01:54 AM
Post: #29
RE: With Gachas Being Banned, How Will Future KittyCatS! Be Released?
I know everyone so far has focused on the understanding of the new ruling, I wonder if on a practical basis for KC the solution may be the collections are offspring driven instead of starter driven. By that I mean, only one set of parents, either male or female, and the usual incredible range we see in a collection featured in their offspring both costume and size. Id probably get as many pairs as I currently do in the interest of getting as many different offspring costumes as possible. The example would be the last winter pair, only instead of getting every color, just getting one of the special offspring per pair.
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08-09-2021, 02:51 AM
Post: #30
RE: With Gachas Being Banned, How Will Future KittyCatS! Be Released?
(08-08-2021 02:08 PM)Shamu077 Resident Wrote:  
(08-08-2021 12:57 PM)Arwen Swordthain Wrote:  They have now clarified that as long as we know what we are buying ie costume with collections then its ok so Gachas/random vendors or whatever you want to call them can't be used to sell cats either at the Mainstore or on the secondary markets.

I think you are saying what is "ok" is selling costumes with collections must not be in a Gacha like vendor, as is used now at the main store. So all new collections must allow individual selection and purchase of the costume color (the orange Cheetah with white spots), for example.

And also that random sizes for these costumed kitties can not be random. If you want a costumed collection cat in the Mega size, that would be another single purchase, perhaps at a higher price. Same with Rares - either charge more for the rare fur, or let the buyers decide what they think is rare by their own choice.

I can see a lot of Buy buttons on vendor boards now, not just Girl or Boy random box.
Yes thats the general gist of it. Not really sure what they would do about sizes because as you point out thats a lot of buttons. I suspect regardless of pricing rares would no longer be determined by KittyCats as they are now but by purchases, afer all if they state rare on a vendor its very quickly going to be most common as everyone buys it and limiting numbers for sale is unfair on people that aren't online at time of release or who need to wait to be paid etc before they can buy.
What they will do of course is pure speculation, all we know right now is the Fall collection way of purchasing will have to be different.

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