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Question about Pure
05-30-2015, 07:00 PM
Post: #11
RE: Question about Pure
Thank you!!!
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 Thanks given by: Devilness Chant
06-15-2015, 12:10 PM (This post was last modified: 06-15-2015 12:22 PM by MsMagick Resident.)
Post: #12
RE: Question about Pure
(05-29-2015 07:55 PM)Ivy Norsk Wrote:  Cats can absolutely be provably pure. But often the pedigrees we see show maybe or probably pure.
It seems that more people used to understand the difference between "line-bred" and "pure-bred" cats. Now I see lots of advertisements for "purebred" cats where the pedigrees given as "proof" aren't proof of anything more than line-breeding. You have to see the trait pop out from under a more dominant trait in a sibling breed or other breeding where the hidden variables are controlled in order to know that it is pure.

Okay so you have a line - a gorgeous line - of jade black bengals with the black whiskers.
And your line May indeed be pure (except for the whisker shape). And with each generation of line breeding there is the chance that the father and mother will both throw their dominant traits and that any lurking hidden trait will be eliminated. But you can't know if it's pure this way. You can only find out somewhere down the road that it isn't pure if - say two cats hiding latte throw them and you get the double recessive throw. As Devilness said, a trait can lurk for a long time, as porcelain did for a year with her without popping out.

I made a BIG newbie mistake and had this exact thing happen to me. I bought a pair with the "pure" fur and eyes I wanted, started breeding them together, and were representing their line as pure because I thought they were. Imagine how I felt when I suddenly had surprise eyes pop up! While they are more recessive, I don't like them as much. *sigh*

So, I was thinking about "testing" them and wondering how many times breeding with more recessive traits it would take for me to know. Well, the eyes are not the only thing that I'm finding. At least I don't have Foxies popping up, but still! I took the "pure" off their description and sincerely apologize to anyone who got a surprise that they did not expect.


(05-30-2015 05:12 PM)Serena Stroikavskoi Wrote:  Really how you breed the kitties is up to you. I personally have lines that I breed for a pure fur. As there is nothing more annoying to me than to finally get the traits I want only to have a recessive fur pop out that I absolutely don't like.

Just don't get into a mind set that recessive is better. There IS NO better trait. The team does a wonderful job with them so choose what you want. Basically it's knowing what you want, how to get there, and knowing what you have Smile

Now to show a Bengal Tawny 'pure' fur I am providing a visual below. Pure just refers to the shown trait is also the hidden trait.

Row shows Genesis Smokey II and hides Bengal Tawny
Emelene shows Genesis Domino II and hides Bengal Silver

Both their offspring Manara and Goldwyn got Emelene's shown fur (Genesis Domino II) and hide Row's hidden fur the Bengal Tawny

[Image: d6f064d38421a7e42367637057f87487]

Thanks to you, Ivy and everyone else who explained how to do this, and actually seeing it really helps! (It also makes me better appreciate all those times when the offspring of a collection kitty shows the Genesis fur when I really, really want the hidden one. :-) ) Right now I'm trying to decide what to do with that particular line. I don't like the hidden eyes that keep popping out, so I'm going to change some things around anyway, but I don't want to lose a lot of the other traits if I can help it.


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 Thanks given by: Ivy Norsk
06-15-2015, 12:57 PM
Post: #13
RE: Question about Pure
i have a other q ... if i breed a starter with a, for exempel, dominant whisker shape and get 2 babys with the dom whisker shape, i breed both together and get babys with the more recessive hiden whiskers shape, is this shape pure than ? or is it still possible that a other shape is hiden ?
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06-15-2015, 03:21 PM (This post was last modified: 01-13-2018 07:01 AM by Ivy Norsk.)
Post: #14
RE: Question about Pure
Jolita, I'm not entirely sure I have the scenario that you want totally understood, but I'd explain it this way:

So you have a Starter, who has shown whisker "G" (for guitar) and is hiding an unknown whisker "x". And you mate it with a mate that has a dominant whisker, yes?, like "M" shown (for mysterious) and hiding an unknown whisker shape we will call "y".

So all the babies will come out in these possible combinations:
GM - you will see the Guitar, and the Mysterious is hidden
Gy - you will see the Guitar and the unknown y is hidden
xM- you will see the Mysterious and the unknown x is hidden
xy - you will see either x or y depending on which of them is more dominant.

So you breed the cats out and you get a set of kittens to work with, obviously a male and female, and you may have different goals. Perhaps your goal, as it is with most starters, is simply to find out what "x" is. For this scenerio I am assuming that x ≠ y, which would give you the purity that you want, but it would not create a proveably pure cat in this generation. So when you're picking mates from this second generation, you really want to work with the kitties that are showing the xM (mysterious) because you KNOW it's hiding the hidden trait of the starter, or you want to work with an xy cat, which is already showing sombody's hidden, and perhaps you know which hidden belongs to which cat if you have access to the pedigree of the mate of your starter.

If you mate two xM cats together, you will know when they both throw the recessive x trait, that the x trait is pure.
If you mate two xy cats together, you will know when they both throw the recessive hidden trait (either x or y depending on relative dominance), that the result is pure.

Mating the G cats is undesirable. There are reasons when a person might do it, if one is trying to isolate y and has no other choice but G cats (who have other traits you greatly desire), but it's much harder because you never know whether you're picking a kitty that is GM or Gy.

The Pawsable Traits Reference manager and a Chart keeper.
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 Thanks given by: Jolita Korobase , Songdog Woolley
06-16-2015, 12:06 PM
Post: #15
RE: Question about Pure
thank u so much Ivy <3
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 Thanks given by: Ivy Norsk
06-18-2015, 05:42 AM (This post was last modified: 06-18-2015 05:48 AM by Tad Carlucci.)
Post: #16
RE: Question about Pure
Given a Guitar known to hide Mysterious (GM, above) and another Guitar, which is a Starter, hiding an unknown (Gx, above), the possible offspring are:

GG
GG
GM
Mx, where x is either Mysterious, or something more recessive.

Since Gx was a starter you already knew x was NOT Mysterious (since it's retired), so you've learned NOTHING and wasted the breeding cycle if your goal was to expose x. At least, if your goal was to be sure you had an offspring which also hid x. You do have a fall-back, though, and that is, when Mx can mate with Gx (opposite gender) you can breed them and have the following possible outcomes: GG Gx Mx xx .. and there is your provable pure offspring.

If Gx is not a starter, and x is completely unknown (meaning it could be Guitar), there is a chance that you'll see GG GG GM Gx. In this case you don't even know if there is a Gx which could bred back to the Gx parent. You can try, but it's a crap shoot with the odds stacked heavily against you.

If your goal was to produce pure (the subject of this thread), and Gx is a starter, using GM is a good choice.

If you goal is to simply expose x, however, GM was a poor choice.
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 Thanks given by: Songdog Woolley
06-18-2015, 05:55 AM (This post was last modified: 06-18-2015 05:56 AM by MsMagick Resident.)
Post: #17
RE: Question about Pure
(06-18-2015 05:42 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  Given a Guitar known to hide Mysterious (GM, above) and another Guitar, which is a Starter, hiding an unknown (Gx, above), the possible offspring are:

GG
GG
GM
Mx, where x is either Mysterious, or something more recessive.

Since Gx was a starter you already knew x was NOT Mysterious (since it's retired), so you've learned NOTHING and wasted the breeding cycle if your goal was to expose x. At least, if your goal was to be sure you had an offspring which also hid x. You do have a fall-back, though, and that is, when Mx can mate with Gx (opposite gender) you can breed them and have the following possible outcomes: GG Gx Mx xx .. and there is your provable pure offspring.

If Gx is not a starter, and x is completely unknown (meaning it could be Guitar), there is a chance that you'll see GG GG GM Gx. In this case you don't even know if there is a Gx which could bred back to the Gx parent. You can try, but it's a crap shoot with the odds stacked heavily against you.

If your goal was to produce pure (the subject of this thread), and Gx is a starter, using GM is a good choice.

If you goal is to simply expose x, however, GM was a poor choice.

I was wondering about that. This is why we need breeding discussions. :-)

BTW, in your list of pairings above, don't you mean:

GG
Gx
MG (or GM if you're switching to put the dominant trait first)
Mx


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06-18-2015, 07:36 AM
Post: #18
RE: Question about Pure
I always reorder to put the dominant first. We don't want people reading MG as Mysterious hides Genesis (which is impossible).
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06-18-2015, 01:36 PM
Post: #19
RE: Question about Pure
whereas I put all of one cat's throws in one column and all of the other cat's throws in another, so as to try to keep which trait belongs to whom clear (and capitalize the dominant trait wherever dominance is known).

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06-19-2015, 07:29 AM
Post: #20
RE: Question about Pure
(06-18-2015 01:36 PM)Ivy Norsk Wrote:  whereas I put all of one cat's throws in one column and all of the other cat's throws in another, so as to try to keep which trait belongs to whom clear (and capitalize the dominant trait wherever dominance is known).

That makes the most sense to me. Switching the order is far too confusing, but I hadn't picked up on the capitalization part. Thanks!


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