Question about Pure

[Bumblebliss Resident]

Fur: Bengal - Black
Eyes: Jade (Shape: Mysterious | Pupil: Small)
Shade: Glitter
Tail: Curious
Ears: Odyssey No. 1
Whiskers: Black (Shape: Plush)

This is the cat I've been working towards and have finally gotten, with the black colored whiskers the hardest for me to achieve. My question is, throughout a number of generations this cat has remained true with these specific traits except for the shape of the whiskers - some being dreamy, frazzled, plush.

When does a cat become pure? Or is it a myth that it can indeed be pure? So this cat in its 12th generation with all the traits being steady except for the shape of the whisker make it pure? The color remains black, just the shape still changes. Or is it when everything, including this final shape of the whisker, is the exact same through XX generations that you call it that?

I'm just curious. I really don't care about the shape of the whisker but am only concerned with the color but I suppose I could pick a whisker shape and start to only breed for it also now that I got the color down.

I was just curious as to this term and when it can be applied? 10 generations, 15 generations, 20 or more?

Thanks! Look forward to seeing opinions.

[Devilness Chant]

A true pure means there are no traits more recessive than the trait shown. Generations don't make it pure.

Here's an example. I was breeding a few lines of kitties that never had a shade in them. I bred them for over a year from starters. I mixed the furs and traits but never put a shade in them. Over a year later Porcelain popped out of nowhere. The original kitties I started with came from my Lazy Dazies, and they were the starters that could hide porcelain. It was a pleasant and very unexpected surprise.

Back in the day...(makes me sound ancient lol) All new traits were recessive. So it was a lot easier to breed pure traits. KC changed it so new traits have been a mix of dom and rec. I have to admit I'm a purist at heart. I like breeding traits that I know will stick, but since most are using rec traits to pull out new dom traits it's hard to find traits that are going to stick with inbreeding and back breeding. sigh

[Bumblebliss Resident]

Ahhh, thank you for the example. I was thinking purely through generations and now I have a new perspective on it!

[Devilness Chant]

Your kitty is gorgeous btw! lol And you are very welcome!

I do want to say that there is a chance your traits are pure since the only traits that have changed are the whisker shape.

I was only answering your question about generation breeding making a trait pure.

[Kayla Woodrunner]

Pure is the shown and the hid is the same. But unless you've tested the cats (or it's ancestor), you may not know your true hids.

You get one trait from the mom and one from the dad for each trait. The most dominant of the 2 always shows.

People who do "pure breeding" often have hids that pass for generations and don't realize that because if both cats have the same shown and both have hids then it's only a 25% chance both will throw hids and reveal the most dominant hid. However if one cat has the same shown and hid; and the other cat has that same shown trait but a different hid: The kitty will always show the shown trait and even if the hid passes (50%), it will never show because both traits on one parent is more dominant and both traits of that parent is the same. I'll do an example based on your whiskers

Mom has plush whiskers shown, frazzeled whiskers hid
Dad has plush whiskers shown, dreamy whiskers hid
You have 4 possibilities of what passes:
Mom shown, Dad shown = Child plush shown and plush hid
Mom hid, Dad shown = Child plush shown, frazzled hid
Mom shown, Dad hid = Child plush shown, dreamy hid
Mom hid, Dad hid - Child frazzled shown, dreamy hid

As you can see plush is shown 75% of the time -- will look as if it passed "pure" but actully 2/3 of the time has a hid
Only 25% of the time did a different whisker show and it was frazzled since dreamy is more recessive.

Same example but making mom "pure"
Mom has plush whiskers shown, plush whiskers hid
Dad has plush whiskers shown, dreamy whiskers hid
You have 4 possibilities of what passes:
Mom shown, Dad shown = Child plush shown and plush hid
Mom hid, Dad shown = Child plush shown, plush hid
Mom shown, Dad hid = Child plush shown, dreamy hid
Mom hid, Dad hid - Child plush shown, dreamy hid
100% of the children show plush

In this scenario every child shows plush so 100% of the children looks "pure" plush but actually 50% had dreamy hid. That dreamy can pass for generations and never show just because it was never matched against another recessive. This scenario is not uncommon when people have parents with matching traits.

I have bought "pure breeds" which look pure for generations -- I always test against more recessive cats. I am not a pure breeder type of breeder -- I am an uptraiter type of breeder which usually means changing traits on a cat and usually to more recessive traits. I have never found one cat to have all traits shown and hid. At least 2 or 3 traits have hids. Most often it is 3 or 4. Even on cats that look "pure" for generations that I bought from another breeder. The previous breeder/s probably never checked for hids so the more dominant traits always showed.

Not saying pure isn't possible but it is very rare. The only was to know is to check. Once you know the hids for sure (means the hid is different from the shown and the hid was thrown against a more recessive) and you know both parents threw the known hid and have the same hid, then the child is proven to have the same shown and hid.

The exception is white mysterious whiskers. White mysterious whiskers seem to be "pure" 80% of the time if the parents and grandparents show it -- that is probably because whiskers as a trait were added later in the evolution than all the other traits. I think all previous cats at that point were given white mysterious whiskers so those cats were automatically pure. Probably an old timer can confirm this. It just seems like a super high amount of whiskers of white mysterious are actually pure.

Some people say pure and some people say solid. Means the same. As an uptraiter, I say checked or unchecked depending on if the current kitty and/or it's ancestors have been checked against something more recessive. Saga's charts need checked kitties to confirm dominance of a trait. Because hids can be passed for generations, you need to prove the hid to show true dominance. The most dominant always shows. Easiest way to prove a hid is to pop a hid against something more recessive.

Pure breeders and Uptraiter breeders are just 2 types of breeders: neither is better than the other though both tend to buy from others doing the same kind of breeding. There are, of course, many other type of breeders and I have no wish to disrespect them -- just too many types to mention. I met a Random breeder. Never matched their kitties, just let them roam and drop boxes. Kind of cool actually -- like real cats, lol. But her kitty's pedigrees probably would give auctioneers conniptions. I'm also a Lovely breeder -- the type of breeder who puts traits together for how lovely the traits go together (pedigree consistency doesn't matter, recessiveness doesn't matter, just the shown traits).

I'm rambling again. Time to stop, lol.

[Ivy Norsk]

Bumblebliss Wrote:When does a cat become pure? Or is it a myth that it can indeed be pure? So this cat in its 12th generation with all the traits being steady except for the shape of the whisker make it pure? The color remains black, just the shape still changes. Or is it when everything, including this final shape of the whisker, is the exact same through XX generations that you call it that?

Cats can absolutely be provably pure. But often the pedigrees we see show maybe or probably pure.
It seems that more people used to understand the difference between "line-bred" and "pure-bred" cats. Now I see lots of advertisements for "purebred" cats where the pedigrees given as "proof" aren't proof of anything more than line-breeding. You have to see the trait pop out from under a more dominant trait in a sibling breed or other breeding where the hidden variables are controlled in order to know that it is pure.

Okay so you have a line - a gorgeous line - of jade black bengals with the black whiskers.
And your line May indeed be pure (except for the whisker shape). And with each generation of line breeding there is the chance that the father and mother will both throw their dominant traits and that any lurking hidden trait will be eliminated. But you can't know if it's pure this way. You can only find out somewhere down the road that it isn't pure if - say two cats hiding latte throw them and you get the double recessive throw. As Devilness said, a trait can lurk for a long time, as porcelain did for a year with her without popping out.

What you can do, though it is labor-intensive, is Make a line pure. People used to do this more often earlier in KittyCatS and perhaps it was easier to do with fewer traits. So you take your gorgeous bengal, and carefully pick or breed a different cat with your desired whisker that has a MORE dominant color, like 2 tone, and then pull the black out from under the 2 tone. Few people care to do this since it endangers the other traits and you risk losing the black. In other words, sometimes you need to break a line to make a pure line.

There are more nuances to explaining this I'm sure, but that's a quick explanation.

Edit: Kayla and I posted at the same time, so I didn't see her post before, but she's got the nitty gritty.

[Bumblebliss Resident]

Thank you all for some excellent information. I really appreciate it and it gives me something to think on.

---

Through the generations I have kept breeding in the family, with parents, grandparents, sister to brother, etc. so I have been a line breeder for sure. I thought it all was generational, but I have learned a lot from the replies. Thank you all!!

[Ivy Norsk]

The thing that makes it especially tricky is that you have to control for 2 lurking hiddens, not just one. Speaking personally, I don't find that it is worth the effort to make a line pure - I just go for knowing what I have and breeding to find out what is there but not trying to eliminate the lurking traits. The cats that are most likely to be pure are the ones that are absolutely most recessive, because there can be no traits hiding underneath - until the next release of new traits. This is also where knowing When traits were released and the dates of your boxes comes into play.

There are reasons other than chasing lindens why people want Most Recessive cats. They are very useful.

[Kayla Woodrunner]

I like the way you say it better, Ivy. A lot shorter, lol.

[Serena Stroikavskoi]

Really how you breed the kitties is up to you. I personally have lines that I breed for a pure fur. As there is nothing more annoying to me than to finally get the traits I want only to have a recessive fur pop out that I absolutely don't like.

Just don't get into a mind set that recessive is better. There IS NO better trait. The team does a wonderful job with them so choose what you want. Basically it's knowing what you want, how to get there, and knowing what you have

Now to show a Bengal Tawny 'pure' fur I am providing a visual below. Pure just refers to the shown trait is also the hidden trait.

Row shows Genesis Smokey II and hides Bengal Tawny
Emelene shows Genesis Domino II and hides Bengal Silver

Both their offspring Manara and Goldwyn got Emelene's shown fur (Genesis Domino II) and hide Row's hidden fur the Bengal Tawny