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Kitty pricing!
04-17-2015, 07:28 AM
Post: #41
RE: Kitty pricing!
Hi, I am one of the persons that breeders might not consider one of the "community members". But I would like to add something to this post to show that there is not just the "breeding community" there but also a lot of other people who just happen to love and adore KittyCats.

Me and two of my friends were hooked around last year in December or so. I always saw KittyCats cats everywhere and desperately wanted one but did not understand this whole breeding pet thing (maybe partly because I am not a native english speaker).

So I read and read and gathered information and ended up buying a flair white Russian Kitty on a secondary market. I rezzed her and was sooo happy ..... until my friend brought home her first kitty. A black & white Chateau cat with natural fur! Her Kitty did not shine like a lamp but looked like a real cat.

We digged deeper into the information about KittyCats and - to cut a long story short - we got addicted badly and we ended up until today with about 300 to 400 cats (live & boxed) each.

We just adore and love our kitties with all our love and soul and we always picked them very carefully according to what we loved and to what we could afford. Me - for example - think there is no sweeter and more adorable kitty than a Genesis Smokey III with a natural coat and whatever mysterious eye color.

My one friend and I we are breeding together our beloved cats. But always only those cats that we know we will keep and love and would problably permapet if we could pay the ridiculously high price for it. We don't like very many of the newer traits and we hate cats that are lighted like lamps. We only breed our natural coated darlings with "these special eyes we adore".

All cats that come out with a non natural fur and all cats of which we know we would never permapet them, we put in our little shop and sell them for a price from 30 to 500 Lindens. We want people to be able to afford one or more kitties without spending hundreds or even thousands of Lindens that they might not have. And this is an important thing to think about. A lot of people maybe would really like to spend more Lindens but they simply don't have that kind of money.

We also see - for many months - kitties in shops that cost a few thousand Lindens and never get bought. So what is the use of paying the shop rent for?

We are absolutely not prepared to put a kitty in the Menagerie again. We did that in the beginning and these sad and abandoned kitties haunt us in our Pedigree lists all the time (and now please don't tell me about those kitties who play and eat and sleep all day in a kind of kitty paradies...).

So we sell them. We hope that the people who buy them will either have use of them breeding the kitties they love or just love and cuddle them or even put in the menagerie to get a Menagerie tiger they dream of.

But we never sell them for profit. We are very thankful to our buyers for buying our kitties. It is a little money to help us cope with our costs but we do never think other people should be made responsible for our costs. We think that if someone wants to breed kitties for thousands of Lindens to breed out special traits and so on.. that's ok - but don't think that makes other people responsible to get you back the costs. We think all this is a hobby or - ok - even an addiction. So everybody must be able to cover all the costs this hobby takes. After all, everything and every pixel cat can be lost tomorrow by LL.

So this whole high cost breeding and high price selling thing we don't understand. We also don't feel and accept everything else about markets and traits...and so on. Why the hell should I pay a lot of lindens for a cat that has a lot of traits that maybe I consider not very nice? Only because the breeder has spent a lot of money in breeding that out? Is this not just the breeders own personal problem if they like to breed these cats?

And is it not even in KC's philosophy that EVERY kitty is a nice and beautiful and lovable kitty? So I heard members of the staff repeating over and over again when it comes to pricing and worth questions in the chat.

All you breeders out there: Please realize that there are a lot of people like us on the secondary markets and that we really don't care for profits and reputation and all this. We just care for our very personal likes in kitties. In kitties that we adore and want to be around us.

If we had the money we would permapet every single of our 300 kitties and just be happy with them. Nothing else matters for us.

And I think it is quite arrogant to ignore our kind of breeders and KC addicts.

WE ALL are the market.

Thank you for reading this.
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04-17-2015, 08:26 AM
Post: #42
RE: Kitty pricing!
(04-17-2015 07:28 AM)CarlottaAdagio Resident Wrote:  Hi, I am one of the persons that breeders might not consider one of the "community members". But I would like to add something to this post to show that there is not just the "breeding community" there but also a lot of other people who just happen to love and adore KittyCats.

Oh, but Carlotta, you ARE community members Smile Everyone who loves, breeds, buys, sells, snuggles, and dreams about KittyCatS is a community member. Welcome!

You said a lot of great things that I know a lot of your fellow community members will agree with, and have even said themselves. There are a lot of folks like yourselves that breed what they love and what they think is beautiful, people that are in it for the love of it and not for profit.

(04-17-2015 07:28 AM)CarlottaAdagio Resident Wrote:  And is it not even in KC's philosophy that EVERY kitty is a nice and beautiful and lovable kitty?

Exactly!! Smile

(04-17-2015 07:28 AM)CarlottaAdagio Resident Wrote:  All you breeders out there: Please realize that there are a lot of people like us on the secondary markets and that we really don't care for profits and reputation and all this. We just care for our very personal likes in kitties. In kitties that we adore and want to be around us.
And I think it is quite arrogant to ignore our kind of breeders and KC addicts.

I feel bad that you felt ignored - it's just that some of us are louder Big Grin Big Grin I'm so glad you spoke up and hope you speak up again in the future because you say some very insightful and intelligent things!

(04-17-2015 07:28 AM)CarlottaAdagio Resident Wrote:  WE ALL are the market.

Yes, indeed!! We need to put that on a sign.

(04-17-2015 06:28 AM)Nocshadue Balbozar Wrote:  I'd also like to state that sometimes it's just a really beautiful cat that starts bidwars and sells for outrageous sums. I saw one with no new or "most recessive" traits fetch over 80K. And many others sell on "looks alone" for very respectable sums. So I really think though we all love new traits, we also put too much emphasis on them in the short term and forget them too quickly in the long term.

Good point! Those Pandie Ebony Ivory cats had a good, long run and they weren't even all that recessive, because a lot of people think they're super cute... the Pandie Brown ended up being way more recessive but didn't really have the popularity that the Ebony Pandie did.

(04-17-2015 06:28 AM)Nocshadue Balbozar Wrote:  I wonder how things would change if there was a yelp for kitty sellers? O.o
That would be VERY interesting!! I'd hate to see what mine would say, now I want to go and re-organize all my shops in case anyone gets any ideas and codes it.

(04-17-2015 06:28 AM)Nocshadue Balbozar Wrote:  I know a few auctioneers will hate me for saying so, but bidwars happen because of excitement and ego more than the "actual resale value" of a trait.

*giggles*!!! I can attest to that fact as I've been guilty on multiple occasions!!! Smile I've definitely let both excitement and ego drive me in bid wars LOL

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04-17-2015, 09:45 AM
Post: #43
RE: Kitty pricing!
(04-17-2015 01:49 AM)Arwen Swordthain Wrote:  
(04-16-2015 12:19 PM)Nektuu Wytchwood Wrote:  I was told to post again, LOL.

Who keeps telling you to post?

It was a joke... friends that thought it would be fine to voice my opinions.

Now, I do not go to auctions anymore nor follow the market closely be it for current traits or for limited edition cats.

So what I share is from my past experience.

Many of you have written interesting posts with your thoughts and arguments and so far I really enjoyed this thread.

In the secondary kittycats market prices are pliable. I learned this early. I used to go around the sims looking at every shop, looking at every box. Made the round more than twice each month so that I know and understand "what is out there, at what prices and how should I price my kitties."

Prices fluctuate with location and in time. There can be no other way for it and depending how you see it it can be a delightful thing.

For me the cost to make a new box is the food + milk I pay for 7 days for a pair of cats. That is 140 lindens.

Each one of us understand and calculates things in their own personal way. Others include the cost of the land they keep their kitties in, others count in the money they spent to buy the ancestors, others can be thinking the time and tries they spend pairing kitties until they get that ONE desired birth. I think of the time I spend and the work it takes to post a kitty in the marketplace. And I am sure people use many other ways that I cannot think citing here. The point is, pricing is an arbitrary thing/procedure, and that is fine too.

Imagine walking a day around the sims and you find that kitty you would love to have at an awesome price. All the other shops you visited have it at high prices far more than you willing to pay, but this here is a bargain, you could buy it and be happy, could even use it to make a good profit yourself.

Now imagine looking for a kitty for ages. Never happened to see it less than a certain price so one day you decide you have saved enough and it is now time. You go buy that kitty that you longingly wanted all this time. But... in less than 30 minutes you see the impossible... this kitty is sold half the price you bought it.... somewhere else you did not look and somehow missed. There is an acid feeling in your stomach that turns your joy to displeasure.

I am saying that both situations are part of the game. Personally I believe that things balance out long term, you will pay a little more here you will save a little more there.

I would not hold grudges against the seller that posts a high price (he did not force you to buy his cat after all and the cat may still be worth that much) nor the seller that offered the bargain (he may have a good reason to do so, maybe a real life emergency, though most often than not he just has his own way of perceiving things, however everyone is entitled to think and act for themselves).
And if they are lazy like me, people also may also put up a price and don't bother to update in years, lol!

The market has ways to regulate itself and we are lucky that kittycats is run in a capable manner as Wendi has been so perceptive to point out.
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04-17-2015, 11:40 AM (This post was last modified: 04-17-2015 12:26 PM by MsMagick Resident.)
Post: #44
RE: Kitty pricing!
(04-17-2015 07:28 AM)CarlottaAdagio Resident Wrote:  I would like to add something to this post to show that there is not just the "breeding community" there but also a lot of other people who just happen to love and adore KittyCats.

We want people to be able to afford one or more kitties without spending hundreds or even thousands of Lindens that they might not have. And this is an important thing to think about.

We also see - for many months - kitties in shops that cost a few thousand Lindens and never get bought. So what is the use of paying the shop rent for?

We think that if someone wants to breed kitties for thousands of Lindens to breed out special traits and so on.. that's ok - but don't think that makes other people responsible to get you back the costs. We think all this is a hobby or - ok - even an addiction. So everybody must be able to cover all the costs this hobby takes. After all, everything and every pixel cat can be lost tomorrow by LL.

All you breeders out there: Please realize that there are a lot of people like us on the secondary markets and that we really don't care for profits and reputation and all this. We just care for our very personal likes in kitties. In kitties that we adore and want to be around us.

And I think it is quite arrogant to ignore our kind of breeders and KC addicts.

WE ALL are the market.

Thank you for reading this.

Great post.. and thank you to you for saying it. I've included my favorite parts above.

Technically, there are different target markets within the bigger market - simply meaning that different people look for different things in the kitties that they are buying
- but They Are ALL Equally Valid.

So I want to echo this:

WE ALL are the market!

and... for that matter...

WE ALL are the community!

(04-17-2015 08:26 AM)Wendi Lavendel Wrote:  
(04-17-2015 07:28 AM)CarlottaAdagio Resident Wrote:  Hi, I am one of the persons that breeders might not consider one of the "community members". But I would like to add something to this post to show that there is not just the "breeding community" there but also a lot of other people who just happen to love and adore KittyCats.

Oh, but Carlotta, you ARE community members Smile Everyone who loves, breeds, buys, sells, snuggles, and dreams about KittyCatS is a community member. Welcome!

You said a lot of great things that I know a lot of your fellow community members will agree with, and have even said themselves. There are a lot of folks like yourselves that breed what they love and what they think is beautiful, people that are in it for the love of it and not for profit.

(04-17-2015 07:28 AM)CarlottaAdagio Resident Wrote:  WE ALL are the market.

Yes, indeed!! We need to put that on a sign.

I'm right there with you!

"Target market" is business terminology to define groups of people and what they are looking for... like you wouldn't normally try to sell children's clothes to single people with no kids. Likewise, while I think Lamborghinis are impressive cars, I would never want to own one, and it would be utterly insane for me to buy one. I'm a Honda Fit kind of gal, but do get dreamy over a BMW Z3.... not the Z4 though.... the lines are all wrong! :-)

So, while technically, the overall KC community has many different target markets within it, let me very clear...

No One Is Any Better Than Anyone Else - They Are Just Different.

Wouldn't this be boring if we all bred the same cats?

I believe in the Beauty of Diversity ... whether it is race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. ... or KittyCats! Wink


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04-17-2015, 12:38 PM
Post: #45
RE: Kitty pricing!
(04-17-2015 07:28 AM)CarlottaAdagio Resident Wrote:  We just adore and love our kitties with all our love and soul and we always picked them very carefully according to what we loved and to what we could afford.

Carlotta, I feel you, and breeders like you are the very heart of the KC Community! When I first started breeding, I DID wander the markets hoping to find that one special cat at a price I could afford. I still remember how excited I was to find a few.

I too was hesitant to menagerie at first, and I understand some breeders choose not to at all and that's ok! I believe that all the love and care, cuddling and laughing, the excitement and even the bickering from all of us about our cats come together and become the spirit of KittyCatS. And in my way of thinking, when we send a kitty to menagerie, that spirit, that we've grown with our love of the kitty, is given back to return again in the new kitties that are created. Yeah, I am a little crazy, but I'm harmless, I promise Tongue

What we're really dealing with and sometimes bickering about isn't the price of cats in most cases, it's just the psychology of group dynamics at work. Keep doing what you love! There will always be differences of opinion and your voice matters just as much as anyone else's. Lord knows I flap my jaw enough in the forums.

Anyway, I think it's time for catnip and a nap ZZzzzz



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04-17-2015, 02:01 PM
Post: #46
RE: Kitty pricing!
(04-17-2015 09:45 AM)Nektuu Wytchwood Wrote:  
(04-17-2015 01:49 AM)Arwen Swordthain Wrote:  
(04-16-2015 12:19 PM)Nektuu Wytchwood Wrote:  I was told to post again, LOL.

Who keeps telling you to post?

It was a joke... friends that thought it would be fine to voice my opinions.

I was joking too, was like it was the voices in your head Wink
are they the same voices I hear Big Grin

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04-17-2015, 02:27 PM
Post: #47
RE: Kitty pricing!
As a newbie to KittyCatS, I have done a lot of shopping and seen such a range of prices that I really do not know the value of a 9T kitty. I have seen 9T cats at L100-200, and others at L10,000. One thing that does seem clear is that kitties reproduce like bunnies (LOL) and SL is hip deep in KittyCatS. So, I do not expect to ever make money from this hobby, and I am mostly looking for Kitties that please me aesthetically.
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04-18-2015, 05:06 AM
Post: #48
RE: Kitty pricing!
(04-17-2015 02:27 PM)Breehit Resident Wrote:  As a newbie to KittyCatS, I have done a lot of shopping and seen such a range of prices that I really do not know the value of a 9T kitty. I have seen 9T cats at L100-200, and others at L10,000. One thing that does seem clear is that kitties reproduce like bunnies (LOL) and SL is hip deep in KittyCatS. So, I do not expect to ever make money from this hobby, and I am mostly looking for Kitties that please me aesthetically.

Hello Breehit! Nice to meet you. And yesss, esthetic quality is important to me for breeding or any purpose. I would hope that we dont ever have to choose between the two. I think if we only breed trait boxes we will all end up with the same cat! LOL. What I like is to see the traits we have available used to create something of beauty that makes me smile when i look at it.

What I especially like to see that gets me all jazzed at my auctions is when a breeder dusts off a "classic" trait and uses it with a new one. It absolutely reinvents that cat and show they are Thinking and Breeding and not just making saleable boxes. I get so excited sometimes about those that I just go on about it. But again, if it has traits but lacks that certain something, it hold no interest to me. It has to be Pretty to me for me to keep and/or breed it!

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04-18-2015, 03:11 PM (This post was last modified: 04-18-2015 03:27 PM by Kayla Woodrunner.)
Post: #49
RE: Kitty pricing!
To me the variance in pricing is a lot like cars. You can buy a car for a $100 if you look but it's going to be a clunker. It may run for a while but you're probably going to be putting money into it fairly soon --- but you probably factor that in because you're willing to buy a car for a $100 and deal with repairs. This car is not a status symbol -- quite the opposite and your friends will have to already love you to get in it.

And you can buy a brand new Delorean which costs a hell of a lot more but I doubt you'll have to deal with repairs. Plus there are are a lot of people who really look up to Deloreans so you're probably going to impress some people and make some friends -- shallow though that may be.

Both are cars. Both should get you where you're going (although I have my doubts about the clunker) but the Delorean will get you there a hell of a lot faster.

It's fairly easy to see the parallels. I have bought $50 and $100 kittens but they are loaded with genesis traits or mysterious/plush. Usually I get them for one trait (I collected eyes and furs until I had all of them). With them, when I did pull them out, it took me awhile and a lot of kibble and several generations to get them uptraited to the point that I liked them and could show them off to my friends. With those I paid not so much in lindens but in kibble and time due to it taking generations to get where I wanted. Since I don't have much money, sometimes time and kibble is all I have to spend and that's ok too. I am a breeder -- meaning I like to breed -- I like the geneology, planning who goes with who and uptraiting a kitty.

I have paid quite a bit more for kitties. The cats I paid $500 to $5000 for saved me time. The $500 to $1100 cats were the purchases I was happiest with. They were close to where I wanted to go so I wasn't spending generations getting them to where I wanted. But I still got to do some work (again I like breeding). These prices seem stable fluctuating between $500-$1100 even up to 2k.

the cats over $1500 up to wherever, they are more like Deloreans. Honestly they are the status symbols. They are the hot new fads. Like in RL, if you see in the beginning of new fad, you are the ones to make money. But fads change and as another hot new fad comes in, prices drop on the older one. These are the cats with the newly discovered traits and these cats even get away with having genesis traits. And if you're paying anywhere close to $1500 for a "new" trait, it's already passing in fashion so you'll need some other traits to back it up. Some breeders make a name for themselves and so you pay a little more for their kitties in general. Some people are good sellers and you'll pay a little more there too -- that's ok. Selling is a skill that some people have and others are not so great at so they should get paid for that skill. (I am not a good seller so I do appreciate good sellers)

A teenager getting their first car often gets a clunker. When I was new at breeding, I did the same. Lots of gen or very dom traits until I learned -- the hard way. As I learned about furs and eyes, I started wanting them and found something too dominant made it hard to pass something else. Then I learned about traits. So gradually my needs changed in what I wanted from cats. A grown up established in their job with a good credit rating will often buy a new car. They are very unlikely to buy a cheap clunker. As you get more knowledgeable about breeding, you "grow up" in breeding and you tend to pay more for cats because you have more specific needs.

I am ok with the wide variance in pricing.

I am not ok with people using the term 9T as if it is a meaningful term. A 9T cat can be $100 because it could be a clunker. A $75 or &100 kitty is good for newbies because they are learning to breed and it's better if your beginning mistakes are cheap ones because you'll stick with it. As you get better at breeding you're not going to care if someone says 9T --- because you're going to look at the traits. What are the traits? Are they ones you already have? Are they a pleasing combination? I'll pay more than 1k for kitties because it has traits I want -- who cares that it is 7T. I seriously do not care about pupil size, shape or shade. Those are not important. I've seen 9T cats that I thought were horrible. Seriously the cat has mysterious tail, curious ears, white mysterious whiskers and you're mad because they're selling it for 100L? Of course they are. That's what those traits are worth because it will take a lot of kibble to uptrait them to anything else. To me those traits say you haven't put any work into it or you're a new breeder or someone told you all 9T cats were created equal and you believed them.

Talk about what the traits are -- instead of just counting them -- that is far more meaningful. I'd like to see someone selling a dreamy, rounded boo boo, flame, dreamy on the same cat for $100 -- ain't going to happen --- because if you can do that you know how hard it is to put those on the same cat and your pricing will reflect that. And the person who makes that cat, if she buys a cat, isn't looking for mysterious so won't be buying $100 kitties. Knowledge is what improves the value of kitties and opens wallets --- not 9Ts.

And if you can't tell the difference betwen a $100L kitty and a $10,000L kitty, use Tad's build-a-cat (http://tad-carlucci.com/Build-a-Cat/) to create your dream kitty, and buy the 100L. You are not ready for the 10k kitty. By the time, you spend the kibble and time to create your dream kitty, you will probably have started going to auctions or stores and bought more kitties to get you there and you'll know the difference between the 100L kitty and the $10,000L kitty. You won't be buying 100L kitties any more and probably not the 10K either but somewhere in between. And if you buy the 10K kitty, you will know why and you will be thrilled to death that you got it. Learning about how to breed comes first though.

Anyways that's my humble 2L worth

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04-18-2015, 04:36 PM (This post was last modified: 04-18-2015 05:56 PM by Fuyutsuki Resident.)
Post: #50
RE: Kitty pricing!
It's frustrating to see the market butchered so badly. Sure when sales are slow we do lower, but how low do you go before its too low? How much time effort and kibbles are bought while you try and make nice kitties then see them go for rock bottom prices? It is beyond frustrating.

Part of the problem is also what I call slap and sell kitties. Yeah sure, its expected with new traits you will breed a few out to sell and make back what you spent, but at some point you need to put the work into the lines. Sure its never easy, but thats the fun of breeding. You find kitties with traits you like and piece them together as you want, to make the kitty you are dreaming of. We all need to make Ls to feed our kitties so we can keep breeding. When it starts costing an arm and leg to breed the kitties we love so much with little return at least to keep what we having going it becomes a problem. May a good breeder has faded away due to just not being able to keep up. It is getting more and more difficult for some. Sad
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