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Kitty pricing!
04-16-2015, 02:02 PM (This post was last modified: 04-16-2015 09:35 PM by MsMagick Resident.)
Post: #21
RE: Kitty pricing!
I'm new to KittyCats, in that I've only been breeding since January, and am still working on getting a sense of what is fair/reasonable when it comes to pricing. However, I do understand basic economics, and the Law of Supply and Demand. (It's good to actually get some use out of my Business degree. :-))

When a product is new and rare, assuming the demand far exceeds the supply, the price will be very high. Then, as production gears up to meet demand, the price naturally drops, often assisted by economies of scale (the more you make, the less it costs to make each one). In a healthy economy, pricing will find an equilibrium point where demand meets supply at a given price. However, if a lot of suppliers suddenly start producing the item because they see there is a high price and strong demand, the market can then be flooded so quickly that the price drops through the floor, and it can take a long time to recover to a more healthy level - if ever.

In RL, patents and copyrights are ways of protecting the developer so that they can hopefully recoup their research & development costs before the prices drops, and hopefully also have revenues to put into developing even more good stuff to sell us in the future, whether it is another life-saving medical technology or the next best seller. But we don't have those protections in the KittyCats world. That is why I don't begrudge those who find new traits charging whatever people will play for them. They put money into finding them, and probably into many more attempts that didn't find anything new or special. Let's also not forget that the folks buying these traits, whether at auction or in stores, are responsible for their own choices in regard to what they are willing to pay.

The above is also why I'm not personally paying thousands of L$ for certain new or recessive traits that I like: I'm afraid the value will drop before I can do anything useful with them, and I'll never get that return on investment. They may be pretty, but not THAT pretty! This could happen because everyone quickly gets that trait, or it could be because a newer and/or more recessive trait is introduced and the trait I got is no longer "hot". There are no guarantees. So I'd rather leave those uber expensive traits to more experienced breeders, and/or those who are collectors. If I still want them when the price goes down to something I can afford, I'll get them then.

Along those same lines, varying prices until you see what people will pay makes good sense. It can be hard to know how valuable something new is, and the way you do that is by testing the market.

The "Fair market value (FMV) is an estimate of the market value of a property, based on what a knowledgeable, willing, and unpressured buyer would probably pay to a knowledgeable, willing, and unpressured seller in the market. [So if someone is going out of business, leaving SL, or broke, what they are asking can't be considered the fair market value. Likewise, if a newbie buyer pays more than an experienced one would, that isn't the fair market value. And yes, I've been there and done that... see below. But, let's face it, if no one is buying your cats, then, by definition, they are overpriced - or you may need better visibility - or both.] ... Fair market value differs from the intrinsic value that an individual may place on the same asset based on their own preferences and circumstances.

- From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_market_value, with bracketed comments added

Personally, I try to price based on the fair market value, but set the minimum based on the intrinsic value - whether it would bother me if that cat sold for less than a certain amount. There are a couple collectibles in my own MP store that I now feel are probably overpriced, but they are priced based on what I personally paid for them, and am not ready to discount them... yet. As I get more experience, I'm finding that I'd often rather just buy an older past-breeding collectible with a beautiful costume than deal with getting a ton of cats that I don't like while trying to pull traits from a newborn. These are cases when I bought the box, then found a live cat much cheaper, so decided to get it and sell the box.

One of these cases is actually the only thing that bothers me. I paid a ton for a 2012 boxed collectible to a well-known, established seller with a huge store because it was the only place I'd actually seen it for sale, and I kept really wanting one. Of course, then I found a live, sick one that was past breeding age for over L$5000 less! I got it and immediately permapeted it, deciding to sell the boxed one. Then, in talking to other sellers, I found out that the seller that I bought the original box from intentionally overprices her cats. Apparently, she has a loyal following who come back because she uses things like gift cards to draw them in, but the cats are still often overpriced, even after the discounts. So, do I sell the box for what she charged - or what she charged, minus the discount, plus seller fees - to get my money back, or do I discount it down to what I think it's worth? Or do I leave it there for a while, see if it sells, and if not, at some point, slowly drop the price? For now the intrinsic value to me is what I paid plus seller fees, but the fair market value is what someone else would pay. Maybe if I wait long enough, it won't matter, and I'll drop the price -or- it will become rare enough that the fair market value to someone else will equal the intrinsic value to me, and I'll sell it.

Speaking of pricing, I've found the price calculator to often be much higher - someone told me it's usually double - the fair market price of a box, and that seems to be the case, based on the current market. I am using L$50 - L$100/trait as a guide as well, but I'm finding that - perhaps because I'm not chasing market trends - even my 9T's are closer to the L$50/trait end. I do intentionally breed cute low-T cats to sell for L$99 - L$199, but am also working on a couple pure 9T lines that I HOPE I never have to sell for that.

I buy the 20 packs of kibble, so the lowest incremental cost for me to produce a cat is at minimum:

20 food & water cost L$2980 = L$149 L per bowl when bought in bulk
Divide that by 4 weeks and then multiply by 2 parents = L$ 74.50 / box

I'd like to get at least this much back on every box I sell, but getting L$50 on a Menagerie Table is better than actually sending them to the Menagerie and getting the equivalent of L$20. (I do love the Menagerie tigers, and as a newbie, I bought a lot of cheap cats before realizing that it's more cost effective to buy the exact one that I want from a bid board than buy 200 - 300 boxes and gamble on getting the eyes & gender that I want.) When non-collectibles are past breeding age, well, that's another story, but I'm only starting to get some that are that old now... and some of those are also going to be the ones that have the most sentimental value, so we'll see.

Given, the above amount does not include the cost to acquire the parents (if you want to do the math, remember to subtract any amount you sell the cat for later and divide the difference by the number of boxes produced), and the food for the first 7 days, or while waiting for a partner to catch up to them in Love.

However, I do think that L$700 is way too high, unless you bought very expensive parents, but then I do my best to keep my costs down:

- I cuddle most of my cats, and only give them milk if they are in a position where I can't easily cuddle them (on a table for sale or in the online cattery). I cuddle them because I like to, but am obsessive about it to save money. :-)

- My In World cattery is on my girl's SIM. It does limit me to having about 25 - 30 cats in world at a time, but I'd like to get it back down to having about 20 who are breeding at one time anyway - plus several cute/gorgeous permapets running around. :-) When I have them out at my house, I would have the same house whether I had the cats or not, so that isn't a factor.

- I only rent prims in secondary markets when I need them for the special tables or bid boards, preferring to sell on the MP even though it's more work, because I only have to pay fees there when a cat sells. Pay L$550/week and only selling a few gacha kitties didn't work for me, and will put anyone out of business fast.

I do buy far too many vitamins because I'm impatient, especially Love Drops (L$30 x 2 = L$60 for love drops, or L$56 if bought in packs), which probably makes it more like L$135/box... sometimes a lot more, if I did something stupid like pair them too quickly and then change my mind two days later. :-)

The only cat that I don't mind giving more expensive vitamins for is the Fancie, because so far, it's worth it based on the value of the gems. THAT was one of those crazy purchases that I can't afford to make again, but hopefully the rewards from it will continue to help my SL budget.

Likewise, I hope that the profit that I make on the 9T's I breed, and on the collectibles I resell, covers for the additional cost of the food, vitamins, etc. that went toward producing the 2T boxes.

In fact, because of my RL circumstances, I do now need my cats, & entire SL life, to be self-sustaining. No... no fire sales... just trying to make good choices and watch my budget all the way around. It does scare me when I see so many people leaving and selling their cats ultra cheap because I don't want to be them.

It also bothers me when I see that someone has a collectible that I paid L$1000 for marked down to L$500 - or even L$200 - and it isn't selling. In the other hand, it would be insane not to get a cat I want at a great price, and a win-win if they need the Lindens. Also, if I buy clearance cats, they are no longer out there pulling the visible market value down. Those who know me, know that I'm not above buying cats from fire sales and then reselling them at the market price if I decide not to keep them - the profit helps feed my other cats, and hopefully it helps in readjusting the value higher back to what it should be.

When I started breeding, a friend told me that the market is flooded, and I'm hearing that prices are half what they were a year ago. I'm trying to ride it out on certain collectibles. Otherwise, I am trying my best to price everything fairly, so that there is money coming in as well as going out, but also so that I'm not underestimating their value.




(04-16-2015 12:19 PM)Nektuu Wytchwood Wrote:  Food+milk cost to make 1 kitten box per 7days per pair for food+milk = 140 L (rounded up)

Thanks for reposting these. I have the notecard, with my own notes added, and refer to it all the time. :-)

I'm sure the final cost was food + plus milk and/or vitamins, if you use them + amortized cost of the parents + rent for any additional land/prims you rent for breeding divided by the number of cats, but L$700 still seems way too high - well unless you are buying expensive new traits or giving Love 10s all the time.

Also, the rent on a store or MP fees - which is really a selling cost, not a production cost - has to be factored into the selling prices if you're approaching this from a purely business perspective.


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04-16-2015, 02:50 PM
Post: #22
RE: Kitty pricing!
Those 100L kitties we see on the market are not so good to say the least.
I'd never hook up one of my carefully bred kitties with one of those mindless breeds.
So perhaps 100L is even too much money to ask because they are just completely useless and pointless.

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04-16-2015, 03:06 PM
Post: #23
RE: Kitty pricing!
(04-16-2015 02:50 PM)Kayleigh McMillan Wrote:  Those 100L kitties we see on the market are not so good to say the least.
I'd never hook up one of my carefully bred kitties with one of those mindless breeds.
So perhaps 100L is even too much money to ask because they are just completely useless and pointless.

Well, obviously you're not their target market! Smile


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04-16-2015, 03:06 PM
Post: #24
RE: Kitty pricing!
I'm seeing all amounts that are pulling to get the price of a box, but are forgetting something very important (well at least it's important for people who are serious about what to breed and make your own cat) is the cost of time it takes to breed a cat, the time it takes to make your own line, the time it takes to enhance a cat, this is not just one week, this is many weeks, even months to finish a project until the final result, and that's plenty of food and open very many boxes, it is for that reason that the final cost of a cat out of a project may never be L$ 140, even L$ 700.

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04-16-2015, 03:28 PM
Post: #25
RE: Kitty pricing!
Omg all this math is giving me an anurism! rofl

Many people will probably want to throw tomatoes at me for this....but I wasn't sure the person this thread was about, but had an idea. I went to all their shops and was hoping beyond hope for a 200L scotish fold ear box. Alas there was none to be found. I still don't understand what the fuss is about, because I've seen the same traits all over in other shops just as inexpensive as what I found. And yes, I bought a flea bitten kitten. It couldn't have been too new since the box was made in Jan and I already have the traits just not in the one kitty yet.

As far as giving kitties away. I left for like over a year. When I came back, friends I hadn't talked to in a very long time were trying to give me all the latest traits and gorgeous kitties. Some of these kitties and traits sold for thousands of lindens. One friend made fun of me saying I copy pasted...ty noooooooooo but I really appreciate it. Every time one of my friends tried to give me a kitty, tears came up in my eyes. As corny and mushy as it sounds those actions mean the world to me. The times I had the winning lottery kitty, I shared with my close friends. Their reactions gave me warm fuzzies. lol To know that I could make someone that happy was wonderful. So if you think that giving kitties away will crash the market, then you are soooo wrong. Lots of people do it and the market still stands in all it's confusing glory.

BTW Wendi I love your posts, you really hit the nails on the head.

I hate to break it to you, but most of us don't have thousands of lindens to spend on kitties. I personally am a bargain shopper. And I find that some of those bargain deals I've found are good breeders. It's a misconception that only the expensive kitties are good. Some may not be so good, but I have found some that are impressive. I've seen some expensive kitties that aren't worth what they're priced at. I've been breeding long enough to know that if there's a more rec trait behind that shiny new one, then it's not worth the price it's listed at. I find all too many are slapping those shiny traits up against rec traits to pull them and get those shiny lindens for them. But that is your choice of breeding. And not my place to tell you how to breed or market. I'm just saying that some ppl that live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. It comes down to, no one is perfect.

I started around the same time as Noc. Hi Noc!

The market has always gone up, had it's slumps, and we have always pondered the mysteries of pricing kitties. It's up there with the mysteries of life. Some price high some low.

Respect and consideration should come before all the drama. The seller of a high priced kitty should respect and be considerate to the buyers that spend high amounts of lindens for their kitties. I do agree with that whole hardheartedly. But I also feel that people should have the respect to discuss their problems with the person they are having problems with and not make it a public lynch mob. If you feel someone did you wrong then by all means, don't do business with them again and even tell your friends. Reputation can make or break a business. But those who post these things in forums or discuss them in kc chat are just as wrong.

One of the hardest lessons I had to learn in life is...you can not tell or force another human being to be or do the things you want them too. Even when it's for the greater good. Sometimes we just have to suck it up and move on.

And another thing that should be mentioned before I pick up my tomatoes and make soup. When you broadcast that someone is under pricing traits. You are actually helping their sales, because us bargain shoppers are going to go and see what there is to buy. (I really would have loved that 200L scotty fold, I'll just have to wait till the price drops sigh) lol

I should end this with...it was not my intention to upset anyone, or anger anyone. I just wanted to be honest.
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04-16-2015, 04:09 PM
Post: #26
RE: Kitty pricing!
Baaahhhhhaaaaa!!!!

(04-16-2015 12:10 AM)Nino Heartsdale Wrote:  
(04-15-2015 11:58 PM)Winter Phoenix Wrote:  

Me, I'll be standing in front of their shoppe with a THIS GUY SUCKS sign.

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hahahahaha - i love your sign!

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04-16-2015, 05:54 PM
Post: #27
RE: Kitty pricing!
I see good people the table for a good discussion, and a nice level to talk. Let me have a word for a moment.

First, were 40 boxes per 100L each. 5t-8t. Fur dead foxsalt. Cats in dusty shops for more than 3 months. 1 time only.

So the lies and rumors can be removed from this conversation. A normal act of a sale of any store.

I'm trying to remember when was the last time I did a burning like this and I really do not remember. Maybe because I did not have boxes in accumulated. I hate dusty boxes. Perhaps the 15 megapuss tigress, and KL food I bought explain why I'm not an accumulator boxes.

last balance sheet: Total: 416 Cats (? ? 214 202) | 530 Boxes (? ? 250 280)
Yesterday I sent 200 box for menagerie. Today I send another 300 boxes.


What I can remember is how I fought to maintain high prices on Blue Marble new fur to 60k. But as more people bought more and kittens in the market, almost impossible to keep, so other people played the prices down, as the normal flow of a market.

Second, as many have already spoken, the market has changed, and increased in size, and sighs on market four years ago does not change the current market. Since KC did firestorm kitten and opened the market to many others. Nothing is as before.

I'm in the market for two years, and I can say that your a veteran in KC. I have not been here in four years ago. I can understand the pain of the veterans, and the desire everything to return ago. But KC decided to Firestomrs cats and open up the market to many new people. A good man of business, knows it must adapt to the changing market.

I get lots of spam and ims daily pricing, cats, promotions, so it looks like someone is normal to a promotion at certain times. Low prices.

Nino said he will not this kind of sales burning. I understand perfectly. These cats are not for you, or for the premier market. I believe you not received a spam about it. This sale was focused on another target audience.

It's time to accept that there is popular markets and premiers markets. Public different targets. Bredes different. Different auctions. I do not work for the premier public. my target is well defined. I focus on popular market and beginners market. My shops are in the right markets.
Basic principles of MARKET 4P (Product, Price, Place, Promotion)

How long does a person create kittens premier level? years? yes. But until the person is a premier, how many steps she went to get to the premiere?

My target audience is to help these beginners people to walk a little further into the KC community. Encourages them. Animates them. Thus, each one decides his way to the future.

Another point here is, half the people have a tendency to the designer, and half the people, have the tendency to mathematics. We have two well destintos groups of people, two different markets, two targets public. Information tendencies, will always say, "I prefer cute cats and well-crafted." Mathematical tendencies, will always seek other challenges. Designes are confectioners. Mathematicians are the industries of ingredients. So some people make the ingredients, and of the people make the cakes.


"Some prefer to play the ball with his hand, others prefer to play the ball with their feet"


The rules for the Premier market does not apply to the popular markets.






Why sell some kittens per 100 L?

As recalled nino and nek, you need 700L to create a cat. ok? so a cat sold for 1400L equals the price of 2 cats, right?
then the sale of a cat by 1400L, me the freedom to help a person to a cat 100L, correct?
So a cat sold for 7000L, equiva-le at the price of 10 cats, ok? So some kittens for 450L, 300L, would be ok in the general balance ok?

Another reason is simple
Each product created there is a 'lifetime'. Thus, a cat built today, in three months, he is worthless.
Think of a cake made today. The price of this cake is high. just came out hot from the oven. AMs, the cake has a shelf life. So every day that passes, the price is reduced so that the cake is sold. Then comes the day limit, or sell this cake today, or he goes to waste. So, better to have a prejudice and sell it for a price below cost, than send the cake to the menagerie.




Some comments seem to hit just the "avarice" and "Greed".
But where this to greed, when you give a kitten free to a friend?
where this greed when it thank a friend with a kitten?
or, an auctioneer so many times, won almost all the new features. Won super discounts.
30%, 50%, 70% discounts for friends. Borrow cats? where this is the greed?
where this the greed when it offers 50%, 75% discount for a beginner student in KC?
I chose a list of 15 friends and send valentines gift kittens.
All my staffs won christmas kittens, haloween, valentines.
Can someone just being greedy, greedy?

If anyone has any questions, I can send a tp for my cattery. You are welcome to meet my work. I work hard.

I am happy to take new peoples to teach some techniques, tips, even if later, in the future, they spit in my face.





Also in time. Alan ended up being the person a little more exalted. Do not buy! Do not buy!

You know the history of automotive Lamborguine?

Ferruccio Lamborghini was a wealthy manufacturer of tractors and farmer, descendant of bullfighters, and like most of the elite society of the time, used the Ferrari brand cars. One day, however, Ferruccio found Enzo Ferrari, founder of the automaker, while doing a review of his Ferrari at the factory, and was complaining about the clutch system of his Ferrari, with which Ferruccio walked there already unhappy times.

Treated with indifference by Enzo, received a similar level of response to: "You are a farmer Continue then driving their tractors and do not speak of my cars." Ferruccio, feeling offended, replied, "Oh, then I'll show you how to make a sports car?".

Some years later, Ferruccio presented its first prototype, the 350 GTV, which became the first production car of Automobili Lamborghini, the 350 GT.




I call this the Premier Bulling!



This history of Lamborguine is exactly the same, the history of Pixel Paws. It's like the story of MRCat!

I want to thanks all 'Enzos Ferraris' the 'KC community' for giving me the opportunity to create Pixel Paws, and created Mr Cat. if they did not exist, perhaps I was happy in his simm only with shopping, doing my work.

Yes. Were many offenses. You are a farmer! out loud.

Many others suffered the same Bulling Premier!

But the only thing my heart desires is to be friends of all and end these dramas.

If I offended anyone, I leave in my public apology!






I would like to add something on the fabulous Magic MS analysis.

I'll give an example. New fur more recessive.

Let's imagine this scenario the market.
Class A, willing to pay 60k
Class B, willing to pay 40k
Class C, willing to pay 30k
Class D, willing to pay 20k
Class E willing to pay 10k
Class F, willing to pay 5k
Class G, willing to pay 3k
Class H, willing to pay 1k

In a market where all the people are united, no fighting, no anger, no wars, no bulling premier, the tendency would be a new fur, be sold for 60k.

Then 2-3 people would have the new fur, and will mutiply. Thus, more supply. But few people in class A. So the new fur, falls to the Class B 40K.
More people rushing to mutiply the fur, and then the price drops to Class C, 30K. This follows up to Class H.

Because of the "Premier bullying," those who are new traits are prevented from selling them to the value suggested 60k. So people Class A, not buy from some breeders. Then force these creators, the Class B . sought a new fur begins to assert only 40k.
Thus, new "Premier bullying" in Class B. Again the price of Fur start at Class C 30k. and so it goes.

Then, there is the market so much drama, bullying, discussions, that new fur, takes effect only 10k in his initiative. Killing the entire market.

Who is guilty of killing the market? Who sells for 10k, why has no one to sell for a higher price, or, who does bulling premiere?

no one is stupid to sell for 10k, something that can be sold for 60k. anyone here do this on purpose.

Thus, the premier bulling only breaks the market.



Sigh.




I hope the translator did a good job.

I hope I have not offended anyone. There is room for everyone to play in KC.

Again my apologies if I offended anyone during these two years. Maybe just missed a better conversation.


Another penny.
I had the opportunity to see Devil in my store today, and I thank it has gone look with your eyes and see size lynching in public, and lies that this topic is doing. Follow the example of Devil.



Congratulations Terror. You had your two minutes of fame. Aplauses.



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04-16-2015, 06:02 PM (This post was last modified: 04-16-2015 06:07 PM by alansaqui Resident.)
Post: #28
RE: Kitty pricing!
LOL, someone felt alluded to this topic, why? Does his conscience accuses him of something? because here, nobody mentioned any name Big Grin

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04-16-2015, 06:27 PM (This post was last modified: 04-16-2015 06:29 PM by Beloved Ruby.)
Post: #29
RE: Kitty pricing!
I do not believe that she had two minutes of fame. She speaks the truth. We all have a responsibility with KittyCatS! and the market as well. If we respect ourselves and value our work, our kitties and the market, then we would see a stabilized market instead of what we are seeing now. Even in the KittyCatS! held conferences by Kitten Longmeadow, she has repeatedly said to respect your work and the value of a kitty. Obviously, some are not respecting that, making a point to destroy the market for everyone else. Some people are like factories. Produce, produce, produce, produce, without a care for the end product. That is very sad, and these mass producers are usually the ones who NEED to sell at such prices to upkeep 400+ cats in their cattery. Let's remember one thing. The more you continue destroying the market, the inevitable effect will be a destruction of everything else, as this works as a domino effect. Some people, like the ones we know of, don't really care, perhaps they have the money to throw off, or having gotten ahead with a few good sales, safely in their pocket, make it a point to ruin the market for all others who are striving to work hard to achieve a good kitty and have a return in the money they have spent in getting those high priced cats.

Very soon, if people continue these practices, such as the ones we see daily, there will be no one to sell to. Why? Because most will simply won't waste time breeding something that requires more invested than they can actually revenue. Perhaps such people that place good cats for a misery will end up being kings of their own lonely kingdom, breeding to menagerie because there will be no customers around.

Value your work, respect yourself and your efforts, and keep the prices at a stable place. Only each of us can do that. And while there will be people who don't care, I hope everyone else stop to think that each cat purchased from that person is your way to contribute to the ruination of a market.

BTW, it is interesting how some lable people as, A, B, C, all the way down the alphabet. Very insulting if you ask me.
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04-16-2015, 07:42 PM
Post: #30
RE: Kitty pricing!
I totally agree that the work should be valued and the effort people make in breeding good lines of kitties should be reflected in price. I think that there is still a strong community that many of us do uphold which is wonderful, and I myself love to buy from friends first and foremost. When I am looking for a new kitty I certainly tend to buy from friends or even swap kitties with them. We all have a freedom of choice to buy from whom we wish which is great and is why reputation and integrity, first and foremost as a person... not breeder... is most important in any community, this one being no exception Smile

I love the cats, making friends with people, old and new who love them too and share it as a common interest... and love meeting new people and helping them with the cats in a down to earth way. Something I am asked time and time again by people new to cats, and which I am sure many of you must also be too... is "what is the best fur/eye etc to breed? what is the most popular???". My answer has been the same for years and always will be... breed what YOU like... what YOU think is special and find your own special combination that works for YOU, which is not so difficult with the huge and ever growing number of traits we have to pick from. This is honestly the most important gift of anything any of us can offer when we meet the new or even fellow breeders... to advise this and also encourage them to value this and reflect such value in the price of the cats. It, albeit indirectly, dissuades them from buying the "clones" of cats we see, depressingly, en masse in some places, no matter how cheap they may be. It encourages them to find their own "niche" and individuality... that individuality may well be what makes their kitties saleable and desirable AND will put them off making clones of YOUR cats they buy from you, and if they feel their cats are special and unique they WILL be encouraged to price them as being such, not mass produce stuff or devalue it. Most of all, it just encourages diversity which surely has to be a good thing and will not lead to direct competition, as in loads of people all breeding very similar types of kitty and trying to undercut one another in order to sell Smile

Angel "I believe cats to be spirits come to earth. A cat, I am sure, could walk on a cloud without coming through" - Jules Verne Angel
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 Thanks given by: Wendi Lavendel , Devilness Chant , Beloved Ruby , TerrorMisu Resident , PrettyPoizen Resident , LickN Wonder
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