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Recessive Traits
01-23-2015, 01:25 AM
Post: #1
Recessive Traits
Why breeding with the most recessive traits won't always work for pulling traits out of starters?

I was given advice when i started KC (more than a year ago) to use recessive furs/eyes/tails etc.. When I want to pull traits from my starter kitties
Another told me just recently to use traits somewhere in the middle to find hidden goodies & neither is really effective in my opinion.

What method can I use to see the results I want.
I know that it's no going to work every time but here are some examples of my
frustration.

My Genesis Diamond IV
Where did the fawn come from?
http://gyazo.com/17312807b2a2844eb1cd9d8bee0727d9


My Genesis Smokey IV
http://gyazo.com/0f78e808cf152253d647debf44fc8b34

Baby #1
http://gyazo.com/1d7651fca9135ed79f11a9ecde2141b3

Baby #2
http://gyazo.com/00a93fba6f2cb95a75f6fe0700a15baa

Baby #3
http://gyazo.com/877f4b4d884322019c200f9b7f9ba6a8


My other Genesis Diamond IV
http://gyazo.com/4820e8486af298bdbf9cd54c5f80b1ef
Huh
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01-23-2015, 04:43 AM (This post was last modified: 01-23-2015 05:11 AM by Kayla Woodrunner.)
Post: #2
RE: Recessive Traits
Hi Brittany
when you work with pairing up your kitties, keep Saga's chart handy. It will help you see easily what is going on

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0...jODliMDhm#

There are 3 charts there. Eye chart, Fur chart, All other trait chart

The other thing to remember is that for each trait, the kitty has 1 shown and 1 hidden

So for the Fur, one is shown and one is hidden. It is possible to have the shown and hidden be the same.

The Parent passes 1, either the shown or the hidden. So they get one each from mom and dad. the most dominant shows

Remember 1 + 1 = 2
1 from mom + 1 from dad = 2 for the baby

So for your first chart

Mom has Abby Fawn fur shown + 1 hidden fur
Dad has Genesis Smokey fur shown + 1 hidden fur

Cute as a Button received Dad's shown Fur Smokey as their shown fur and
they cannot get dad's hidden fur because received the shown
which means the Hidden Fur has to come from Mom either Mom's shown or hidden fur

Cute as a Button had a baby with Abby Fawn fur which is Mom's shown fur
Most likely Cute as a Button received Mom's shown fur as it's hidden fur

(I only say "most likely" because I can't see who is the other parent "Dreaming Aby Tester" for that baby so if you paired it with either Abby Fawn shown or hidden, there is a possibility they received it from the other parent)

Do you see?
--------------------------------------------

I am going to skip down to Baby 3 because it shows a problem people run into

Genesis furs are extremely dominant. Meaning if the parent passes a genesis fur, it always shows over other furs. Limited Collection cats for the most part are starter cats under their coats. (Exceptions are 1st child of some limited may have a special coat, and some babies born during specific time periods may randomly birth with a special coat -- in those cases their true traits are underneath)

What that means is that, unless you really like genesis traits, do not breed genesis to genesis because it can mean a lot of work later to change the traits. First baby of special limited may have a special coat but after that they just show whatever gets passed.

Baby 3 is a good case in point

Grandmother Edan Genesis Smokey and
Grandfather Anthony Genesis Diamond had a girl Darcell Genesis Diamond

Darcell shows Genesis Diamond which she got from dad
so she gets mom Genesis Smokey or mom's hidden

You paired Darcell with Snowcream which is not a Genesis fur (no genesis in name)
You got Baby Genesis Smokey which is dominant to Snowcream so had to come form Darcell

Genesis Smokey is Darcell's hidden fur which she got from her mother (mother's shown). Darcell will give either genesis smokey or genesis diamond furs to her babies.

Now your new baby that you made has Genesis Smokey from her mother and for her hidden will have dad's shown Snowshoe Cream or dad's hidden
(that means if you mate this baby with the father you have 50% to get genesis smokey or Snowshoe baby as they have both "genes")

However, this baby shows other information about Darcell and Brandere
Eye is Brandere's shown Azure, so Baby's hidden comes from mom and has to be more recessive than Azure. So you know Darcell did not get a double genesis eye with this baby. Darcell has Genesis Earth shown and another eye hidden that is not genesis.

Baby's shade is Flair which is dominant to Glitter. so you have to get it from Mom since Dad can only pass Glitter or something more recessive. Flair is Mom's hidden shade. So Darcell has Natural shade shown and Flair shade hid

baby's ear is Ody boo boo. Who did it come from? since it is not the same as either Mom or Dad's shown, it has to be a hidden. Dad shows Pointed Soft Fold which he got from his Father so his hid has to come his mother. Dad's mother shows Mysterious Odyssey Fold. So Dad's hidden ear has to be mom's shown or something more recessive. Since Ody Boo Boo is dominant to MOF, Ody Boo boo cannot be Dad's hid but came from Mom Darcell. Now you know Mom's shown is Ody #2 and her hid is Ody boo boo. Those are the only 2 ears mom can throw.

So each parent gives 1 out of their 2. The baby gets 1/1 (1 from mom/1 from dad). Of those 2, the most dominant becomes the shown. The most recessive becomes the hid.

This is why a chart like Saga's is crazy important.

"In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this." Terry Pratchett
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 Thanks given by: Ivy Norsk , Songdog Woolley , Morgan Trevellion
01-23-2015, 11:24 AM
Post: #3
RE: Recessive Traits
(01-23-2015 04:43 AM)Kayla Woodrunner Wrote:  Hi Brittany
when you work with pairing up your kitties, keep Saga's chart handy. It will help you see easily what is going on

https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0...jODliMDhm#

There are 3 charts there. Eye chart, Fur chart, All other trait chart

The other thing to remember is that for each trait, the kitty has 1 shown and 1 hidden

So for the Fur, one is shown and one is hidden. It is possible to have the shown and hidden be the same.

The Parent passes 1, either the shown or the hidden. So they get one each from mom and dad. the most dominant shows

Remember 1 + 1 = 2
1 from mom + 1 from dad = 2 for the baby

So for your first chart

Mom has Abby Fawn fur shown + 1 hidden fur
Dad has Genesis Smokey fur shown + 1 hidden fur

Cute as a Button received Dad's shown Fur Smokey as their shown fur and
they cannot get dad's hidden fur because received the shown
which means the Hidden Fur has to come from Mom either Mom's shown or hidden fur

Cute as a Button had a baby with Abby Fawn fur which is Mom's shown fur
Most likely Cute as a Button received Mom's shown fur as it's hidden fur

(I only say "most likely" because I can't see who is the other parent "Dreaming Aby Tester" for that baby so if you paired it with either Abby Fawn shown or hidden, there is a possibility they received it from the other parent)

Do you see?
--------------------------------------------

I am going to skip down to Baby 3 because it shows a problem people run into

Genesis furs are extremely dominant. Meaning if the parent passes a genesis fur, it always shows over other furs. Limited Collection cats for the most part are starter cats under their coats. (Exceptions are 1st child of some limited may have a special coat, and some babies born during specific time periods may randomly birth with a special coat -- in those cases their true traits are underneath)

What that means is that, unless you really like genesis traits, do not breed genesis to genesis because it can mean a lot of work later to change the traits. First baby of special limited may have a special coat but after that they just show whatever gets passed.

Baby 3 is a good case in point

Grandmother Edan Genesis Smokey and
Grandfather Anthony Genesis Diamond had a girl Darcell Genesis Diamond

Darcell shows Genesis Diamond which she got from dad
so she gets mom Genesis Smokey or mom's hidden

You paired Darcell with Snowcream which is not a Genesis fur (no genesis in name)
You got Baby Genesis Smokey which is dominant to Snowcream so had to come form Darcell

Genesis Smokey is Darcell's hidden fur which she got from her mother (mother's shown). Darcell will give either genesis smokey or genesis diamond furs to her babies.

Now your new baby that you made has Genesis Smokey from her mother and for her hidden will have dad's shown Snowshoe Cream or dad's hidden
(that means if you mate this baby with the father you have 50% to get genesis smokey or Snowshoe baby as they have both "genes")

However, this baby shows other information about Darcell and Brandere
Eye is Brandere's shown Azure, so Baby's hidden comes from mom and has to be more recessive than Azure. So you know Darcell did not get a double genesis eye with this baby. Darcell has Genesis Earth shown and another eye hidden that is not genesis.

Baby's shade is Flair which is dominant to Glitter. so you have to get it from Mom since Dad can only pass Glitter or something more recessive. Flair is Mom's hidden shade. So Darcell has Natural shade shown and Flair shade hid

baby's ear is Ody boo boo. Who did it come from? since it is not the same as either Mom or Dad's shown, it has to be a hidden. Dad shows Pointed Soft Fold which he got from his Father so his hid has to come his mother. Dad's mother shows Mysterious Odyssey Fold. So Dad's hidden ear has to be mom's shown or something more recessive. Since Ody Boo Boo is dominant to MOF, Ody Boo boo cannot be Dad's hid but came from Mom Darcell. Now you know Mom's shown is Ody #2 and her hid is Ody boo boo. Those are the only 2 ears mom can throw.

So each parent gives 1 out of their 2. The baby gets 1/1 (1 from mom/1 from dad). Of those 2, the most dominant becomes the shown. The most recessive becomes the hid.

This is why a chart like Saga's is crazy important.

Okay Kayla I want to thank you so much for your reply, I was not aware that a kitty can hide two genesis furs?! That is amazing information & it has relieved my frustration with darcell & as to why she keeps having gen babies. I'm familiar with the saga charts but use them as a go-to when i want to pick partners for my kitties & to find out what's dominant to what so I can get the kitty I desire.
for example, I want to breed a foxie auburn with a foxie soft black
the saga charts tell me a foxie auburn is dominant to foxie soft black so the chances of me getting soft black are? _____
50 right? I would think they'd be much higher than that.
So each parent gives 1 out of their 2. The baby gets 1/1 (1 from mom/1 from dad). Of those 2, the most dominant becomes the shown. The most recessive becomes the hid.

So if darcell had a baby with a Ocicat black, the kitties shown fur would be genesis diamond & the hidden would be ocicat black or the ocicat's black hidden fur?
I'm trying to get the idea that traits aren't hereditary but more of "chances"?
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01-23-2015, 12:13 PM (This post was last modified: 01-23-2015 06:28 PM by Kayla Woodrunner.)
Post: #4
RE: Recessive Traits
You are starting to get it, Brittany. If Darcell (assuming a different Darcell with nongenessis fur parent) shows Gen fur and has baby Ocicat, it is either Darcell's hid or could come from dad. But speaking in specifics, your Darcell CANNOT possibly throw Ocicat. You have discovered her shown fur and her hidden fur and both are genesis. She can only throw those 2 furs. That is what she has. All of her babies have a 50/50 chance to receive either the Genesis Diamond or Genesis Smokey from Darcell.

However traits are hereditary and chance. They are hereditary in that a parent has a shown trait and a hidden trait (shown fur/hidden fur) and that parent can only throw that shown or hidden. It cannot throw more than 2 possibilities of any trait. Chance is that it is 50% chance whether the shown or the hidden gets thrown.

Because of this, part of the game is discovering if the hidden traits on you kitties.

Your confusion in thinking kitties can only have 1 genesis fur is that Starters can only have 1 genesis fur and will have 1 nongenesis fur hiding. However all other kitties which are not starters, including children of starters, can have 2 genesis furs if the mom and dad have genesis furs. Specials bought at Kittycats Store like the Xmas specials and the upcoming Valentine specials will be Starters under their special coat. The Advent Xmas kitty is also a starter under the coat.

If you are frustrated getting genesis furs on babies, retire Darcell and don't breed her. She has 2 genesis furs shown and hidden so all her children will always have a genesis fur showing. There is no other possibility for Darcell's children. However, Darcell's grandchildren can have a nongenesis fur showing. If you breed one of her children who has a dad with a nongenesis fur showing to a partner who has nongenesis fur showing. Those children have 1 genesis fur from Darcell shown and 1 nongenesis fur from nongensis Dad hidden. You will have 50% chance to get a nongenesis fur. Or breed nongenesis fur to nongenesis fur and you will have 100% chance of nongenesis fur.

If you want an Ocicat, get an Ocicat mom with Ocicat showing and breed it to the Snowcream dad. Ocicat is dominant to Snowcream and will show against Snowcream.

Look at it like math. I'm going to change to letters.

Mom has Aa fur. A is shown, a is hidden
Dad has Bb fur. B is shown, b is hidden

Aa + Bb =
you will get
AB or Ab or aB or ab
(it is not possible to get AA, Aa, aa, BB, Bb, bb because you get 1 each from each parent)
each combo has a 25% chance of happening
Then Dom is on top
so with each combo, the dominant fur shows. It is possible to get the same shown fur and hidden fur if both parents have the same fur.

So you try it. On your second picture Baby #1, answer this
1. What is Mom's shown fur?
2. What is Dad's shown fur?
3. What is Baby's shown fur?
4. Who did baby get their shown fur from, mom or dad?
5. From whom will the baby get the hidden fur, mom or dad?
6. The hidden fur has to be which fur or more recessive?

"In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this." Terry Pratchett
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01-23-2015, 12:59 PM
Post: #5
RE: Recessive Traits
Check http://kittycatsaddicts.com/wiki/Breeding_Basics .. the graphics might aid understanding.
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 Thanks given by: Kayla Woodrunner , brittanybelike Resident
01-23-2015, 07:22 PM
Post: #6
RE: Recessive Traits
Yes, when I pick up a starter from the main store I've always thought okay this guy has a genesis fur & lets breed it with a non-genesis fur & see what we get? I might get some gen babies here and there but never would i think a kitty can have one shown gen fur & one hidden gen fur so that's why i'll be retiring Darcell soon as I get home. You said I'll only get genesis babies from her but what if I breed her with a non genesis kitty, ( well I have) and the non genesis partner throws out his hidden & the kitten shows it. Is that possible?
I like how you put it into a math equation, It's more understandable that way.
Baby #1
1. What is Mom's shown fur? Genesis Smokey IV
2. What is Dad's shown fur? Foxie Salt & Pepper Mask
3. What is Baby's shown fur? Genesis Smokey IV
4. Who did baby get their shown fur from, mom or dad? Mom!
5. From whom will the baby get the hidden fur, mom or dad? Both Mom and Dad?
6. The hidden fur has to be which fur or more recessive? It has to be more recessive to genesis smokey & foxie salt and pepper?
I'm confused once again, the kitten here can either get moms hidden fur (which we don't know yet) or dads shown fur which is foxie sp, but what is dads hidden? ( we don't know, could it of been thrown out there before his mother and father) the kittens great grand parents?

I wish I could click onto this & fully understand it all so easily like a lot of other breeders but it's taking a bit longer for me. Thanks for being patient & taking time out to help me Kayla.
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01-23-2015, 08:19 PM (This post was last modified: 01-23-2015 08:24 PM by Kayla Woodrunner.)
Post: #7
RE: Recessive Traits
You're doing really good Brittany. Almost all your answers were correct.

I'll put good/bad for your answers so you can see where you need to focus

Baby #1
Good 1. What is Mom's shown fur? Genesis Smokey IV
Good 2. What is Dad's shown fur? Foxie Salt & Pepper Mask
Good 3. What is Baby's shown fur? Genesis Smokey IV
Good 4. Who did baby get their shown fur from, mom or dad? Mom!
Bad 5. From whom will the baby get the hidden fur, mom or dad? [b]Both Mom and Dad? [/b]
Bad 6. The hidden fur has to be which fur or more recessive? It has to be more recessive to genesis smokey & foxie salt and pepper?

You did good but you have a small area to rethink. Where you are making a wrong turn is that you can only get 1 fur from Mom and 1 fur from Dad.

always 1 + 1 = 2

You said baby's shown fur come from mom. That is correct. If you get 1 from mom, you cannot get another fur from Mom. Mom passes 1 and Dad passes 1.

Special Question A. So if Mom passes the shown fur and she can only pass 1 fur, who is left for the hidden fur to come from?

Knowing this, please reanswer question 5 & 6.

5. From whom will the baby get the hidden fur, mom or dad?
6. The hidden fur has to be which fur or more recessive?

"In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this." Terry Pratchett
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01-24-2015, 01:47 PM
Post: #8
RE: Recessive Traits
(01-23-2015 08:19 PM)Kayla Woodrunner Wrote:  You're doing really good Brittany. Almost all your answers were correct.

I'll put good/bad for your answers so you can see where you need to focus

Baby #1
Good 1. What is Mom's shown fur? Genesis Smokey IV
Good 2. What is Dad's shown fur? Foxie Salt & Pepper Mask
Good 3. What is Baby's shown fur? Genesis Smokey IV
Good 4. Who did baby get their shown fur from, mom or dad? Mom!
Bad 5. From whom will the baby get the hidden fur, mom or dad? [b]Both Mom and Dad? [/b]
Bad 6. The hidden fur has to be which fur or more recessive? It has to be more recessive to genesis smokey & foxie salt and pepper?

You did good but you have a small area to rethink. Where you are making a wrong turn is that you can only get 1 fur from Mom and 1 fur from Dad.

always 1 + 1 = 2

You said baby's shown fur come from mom. That is correct. If you get 1 from mom, you cannot get another fur from Mom. Mom passes 1 and Dad passes 1.

Special Question A. So if Mom passes the shown fur and she can only pass 1 fur, who is left for the hidden fur to come from?

Knowing this, please reanswer question 5 & 6.

5. From whom will the baby get the hidden fur, mom or dad?
6. The hidden fur has to be which fur or more recessive?

Okay Okay I got this now
A- DADDY!

5. Dad
6. more recessive to foxie sp

Please tell me I'm heading in the right direction.
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01-24-2015, 02:06 PM
Post: #9
RE: Recessive Traits
You got it totally right. since you know the baby got the shown from Mom, you did get the hidden fur from Dad. and you are right, the fur has to be Foxie S&P Dad's shown fur and the same fur or more recessive hidden.

If you breed the girl back to dad, you have a 50% chance to get Foxie S&P or more recessive.

"In ancient times cats were worshipped as gods; they have not forgotten this." Terry Pratchett
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 Thanks given by: brittanybelike Resident
01-24-2015, 06:39 PM
Post: #10
RE: Recessive Traits
hi5
Thanks!!!
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