Drop Menu Website Template
Image
image
image


Hello There, Guest! Register

Post Reply 
Recessive ranking order for Genesis 4 furs
08-16-2014, 09:31 AM
Post: #11
RE: Recessive ranking order for Genesis 4 furs
And this discussion is as fine a demonstration as any as to why we need 2 proofs for any ranking to be made.

The Pawsable Traits Reference manager and a Chart keeper.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
 Thanks given by: anna Acanthus , Wendi Lavendel , Brunabug Nightfire
08-16-2014, 09:36 AM (This post was last modified: 08-16-2014 09:39 AM by anna Acanthus.)
Post: #12
RE: Recessive ranking order for Genesis 4 furs
(08-16-2014 06:34 AM)Wendi Lavendel Wrote:  Sure, whatever... I was giving an EXAMPLE of how the chart was inconclusive and asking for more info.




(08-16-2014 09:13 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  ... then we should all worry that the charts will become meaningless when proof they're wrong comes along, as it will ...

Yeah you wish.

Everyone, except you apparently, is delighted to have Wendi and Charles handling the charts, not just out of popularity but because they both know their stuff inside out, and i really hope this doesn't piss them off before they've even started.

I doubt petty mindedness gets to them that much though.




(08-16-2014 09:31 AM)Ivy Norsk Wrote:  And this discussion is as fine a demonstration as any as to why we need 2 proofs for any ranking to be made.

Lol Ivy, good memory Wink
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-16-2014, 10:03 AM
Post: #13
RE: Recessive ranking order for Genesis 4 furs
No, you are wrong. I am happy someone is taking over the charts.

You misunderstand my concern. My concern is that the very first activity I see requests a meaningless follow-up. Perhaps the lack of accuracy is simply that they're new .. I hope so.

As to two proofs being required: no, that should never be required. Proof is proof. Accepting a false-proof, no mater how many times you receive it is still no proof.

It does show, though, why Saga's Charts are becoming meaningless, and why we need to alternate charts being provided by someone else. Hopefully, between the two chart options, one of you will get it right.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-16-2014, 12:21 PM
Post: #14
RE: Recessive ranking order for Genesis 4 furs
Tad Wrote:As to two proofs being required: no, that should never be required. Proof is proof. Accepting a false-proof, no mater how many times you receive it is still no proof.

You are speaking in a mathematically purist way, but in real life even mathematicians working with advanced proofs sometimes find angles that disprove previous "proofs". To say "Proof is proof" and everything else is a "false-proof" is practically speaking, a tautology. Yes, we want a rock-solid diamond-hard proof, and KittyCats is not so complicated that we can't get it. We certainly can.

Tad Wrote:It does show, though, why Saga's Charts are becoming meaningless, and why we need to alternate charts being provided by someone else.

Hyperbole much. Saga's charts aren't meaningless as well you know. I do think that it's a fine thing that Fabio is also working on charts and Wendi and Charles are taking over from Liriel. It gives two resources for checking on things, and on any given trait, one of the two charts may have more data at any given time.

Tad Wrote:Hopefully, between the two chart options, one of you will get it right.

Do you not see the irony in saying this and also insisting that we only need one proof? Because having two proofs also serves a social function, not just a logical one. It maintains the public trust in the charts. Yes, I know, it's a logic puzzle and there is only one right answer, and the keepers of the charts need to responsibly run all the permutations. Wendi saw the fuzzy area and waved her paw in the general direction of the inconclusiveness, and asked for more info. I think your critique ultimately boils down to that you did not feel that her communication was adequate. And it may be that the chart-keepers will have to feel their way into best communication practices (as the business-speak would say). But I don't doubt the knowledge of Wendi or Charles or Fabio.

Posting the pedigrees publicly does help so that everyone can participate in solving the logic puzzle.

The Pawsable Traits Reference manager and a Chart keeper.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
 Thanks given by: anna Acanthus
08-16-2014, 01:43 PM
Post: #15
RE: Recessive ranking order for Genesis 4 furs
(08-16-2014 12:21 PM)Ivy Norsk Wrote:  ... And it may be that the chart-keepers will have to feel their way into best communication practices (as the business-speak would say). But I don't doubt the knowledge of Wendi or Charles or Fabio. ...

I think you are right here :-)

[Image: o5e5bzt]

Retro Kitties Showroom »

Notorious kitty hoarder ..
My cats rarely leave my cattery.



Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
 Thanks given by: anna Acanthus
08-16-2014, 06:48 PM
Post: #16
RE: Recessive ranking order for Genesis 4 furs
Honestly as these are edited pedigrees there is NO way to know except with unedited pedigrees being provided and further proof when asked for grandparents. Wendi is handling this correctly and I have the utmost faith in both her and Charles in taking over the charts. I do not blame anyone for posting edited pedigrees when posting on the forums but they need to be unedited for those who do the charts and when they ask for more information it should be provided without the drama.

Tad if you wish to gather all the information again and do your own charts no one is stopping you but please stop trying to discredit others.

Heart KittyCatS lover and LazyCats auctioneer. Heart
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
 Thanks given by: anna Acanthus , Wendi Lavendel , Brunabug Nightfire
08-16-2014, 07:03 PM
Post: #17
RE: Recessive ranking order for Genesis 4 furs
I am *NOT* trying to discredit them.

I think what you're objecting to is having someone pointing out, publicly, that they made a mistake, publicly.

I want them to succeed. I'm sorry if you can't understand that asking for meaningless information will NOT aid their success, not will it endear them to the people who's time they're wasting when the requested meaningless information is presented.

We all make mistakes. To learn, and not do so again, we need, first, to recognize the mistake.

As to the comment about pedigrees. If you want to go there .. NO pedigree image should be taken at face value. I can easily produce a pedigree image that is totally false, but bit-for-bit identical to the image which the web site would produce. Given the restrictions placed upon pedigree access on the web site, the only reliable evidence, which cannot be adulterated, is from either form of Pedigree link, directly observed by the analyst. Perhaps that is the idea behind the requirement for corroboration .. it assumes that no two avatars on Second Life would both produce false information. That may be safe-enough, but it's still a risk.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
08-16-2014, 11:55 PM (This post was last modified: 08-16-2014 11:57 PM by Sanura Snowpaw.)
Post: #18
RE: Recessive ranking order for Genesis 4 furs
But the thing is it is NOT meaningless information. Nor is not up to you to determine what is relevant information or not. It is up to Wendi and Charles as they are handling the charts. So yes you are trying to undermine them in a public forum no less.

IT IS NOT A MISTAKE!!!!! MORE information is NEVER a mistake when producing something so many people put their faith and trust into.

You can say it is meaningless until you are blue in the face and I will disagree.

It is NEVER meanless to have MORE information when determining things for the charts.

Heart KittyCatS lover and LazyCats auctioneer. Heart
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
 Thanks given by: anna Acanthus
08-17-2014, 02:09 AM
Post: #19
RE: Recessive ranking order for Genesis 4 furs
Well i've been leaning on these charts getting on for three years now, and they've never misled me yet, and i think if it'd happened to others then we'd have all heard about it and VERY LOUDLY, especially as there are a few snipers out there who'd just love to disprove them.
So i'd say that any claim that they are meaningless is … meaningless.

Also, the reason that i'm extremely content that it's Wendi and Charles taking over isn't just that they're really cool, low profile (… ahem …) guys but i know a bit about their RL credentials and capacities as i did for Liri and this gives me total confidence in their capabilities.
I also doubt Saga chose them only because she likes them either, i mean she likes me too but no tap at my door (sniffs) Tongue
This kind of work is child's play for them, not to mention that as a binôme they can check out each others work in the event of any passing duh moment.
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
 Thanks given by: Wendi Lavendel
08-17-2014, 07:38 AM
Post: #20
RE: Recessive ranking order for Genesis 4 furs
(08-16-2014 07:29 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  You asked what the Smokey was hiding. That would not prove anything.

Yes it would, Tad, sorry. We did not make a mistake.

For example, if Pia could be proven to be a pure SmokeyIV (SmokeyIV hiding SmokeyIV) then you could prove that SmokeyIV is recessive to DiamondIV... and then, using Tala 01-11's pedigree, you could go on to prove that it was recessive to FlameIV. This would give you the complete order of all the Gen4 furs.

Another example (everyone keep in mind that these are examples only): if it was clear that Pia was hiding DiamondIV - That would prove that SmokeyIV was dominant to DiamondIV. One would then be left with the task of trying to figure out where SmokeyIV fits in relation to DominoIV and CocoIV (a nice project for someone who happens to have the furs handy!)

If anyone would like to see explanations of these two examples (perhaps as a learning experience?) then let me know. Just remember that these are theoretical examples.

So, this is why I requested more information. It was not a mistake or an oversight. Smile

=======
For everyone re. the 2 proofs required: I think the original reasoning was because of a specific situation that caused the validity of the actual documents that provided proof of a trait's position to come into question. Saga then required 2 independent proofs for very recessive traits just to make sure - The most recessive traits drive the market considerably and she was just trying to make sure that there was incontestable proof before publishing results for recessive traits.

Charles and I only had a few minutes to discuss this ourselves but we're going to leave this alone for now and continue to look for 2 independent proofs of the more recessive traits. Clearly in many proofs the results are extremely obvious and it seems silly to waste time looking for a second proof, I agree. However, based on Saga's past experience, I'd rather waste a little extra time if it means being thorough and maintaining the integrity of the charts.

I've found assumptions in the proofs that were used to update the charts that were copied from Saga's (I forget who copied that stuff from Saga at the moment, sorry... I'm sure it will come to me after I press Send). I'm sure the person was probably just using information they had about their own cats that wasn't available in the pedigree, however Charles and I are very thorough and refuse to make assumptions or guesses when it comes to keeping the charts updated. If that bothers someone, sorry, but the integrity of Saga's charts is more important.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the support, I really appreciate it Heart But let's not all fight back and forth, ok? We're all interested in helping keep the charts up to date. If someone says something you don't like, just ignore it. Smile Don't worry about Charles and I; we can't be bothered to waste our thoughts or energy on any negative things people say about us, and we don't want you to, either. We'd rather everyone focus their energies on breeding awesome cats and sharing trait puzzles with each other.

If anyone has any constructive information, we welcome it, but keep let's keep the insults and accusations to ourselves (or vent to a good friend in private Big Grin )

Sound good? Good! Smile Because wow, we received some doozies over the weekend and can't wait to share them with everyone!

SagaKitty News and Updates Blog:
http://sagakitty.blogspot.ca/
Got Proofs? =^^=
Send full-perm textures/NCs/urls to SagaKitty in SL or email SagaKittySL@gmail.com
Find all posts by this user
Quote this message in a reply
 Thanks given by: Kayleigh McMillan , CatSoleil Bellecoeur , Ivy Norsk , Saga Felix , anna Acanthus , Sanura Snowpaw , Eurydice Barzane
Post Reply 




User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)