Breeding hidden true recessives.

[anna Acanthus]

I know that many details of KC breeding may seem like rocket science at first but in fact it's all down to a couple of very basic rules.
What IS complicated is trying to explain the various configurations and examples.
So i'll try give a very short and simple demo.

I breed a starter with (for example) a Black Russian and i get a Black Russian offspring.

I go to the fur trait chart in Saga's docs. (NO ONE knows these off by heart and we all have to refer to them often)

I find where Black Russian is situated and i know that this OS is hiding either Black Russian or any of the other furs reading down to the bottom of the page, as it can ONLY be hiding the same or more recessive.

This simple basic applies to all traits, and once it sinks in one can work almost everything else out from there.

[Kayleigh McMillan]

I love all efforts brought by breeders who took the time to anwer questions so well which arose.
It has become a real good and relevant addition to the forums, I think!

[Barbara Collazo]

(02-12-2014 03:44 AM)Kayleigh McMillan Wrote:  I love all efforts brought by breeders who took the time to anwer questions so well which arose.
It has become a real good and relevant addition to the forums, I think!

Agreed, Kayleigh, thank you all for your explanations!

[Zevara Resident]

(02-11-2014 11:00 PM)Aisling MacMoragh Wrote:  

(02-11-2014 08:40 PM)Barbara Collazo Wrote:  I did not say it doesn't make a difference (I'm sure it does or you all wouldn't be doing it); I asked why it does. But in any case, what I think I've gotten from today's conversation is that you experienced breeders are working with not two, but at least three furs, so that you can infer what is being passed into the babies. That's a very useful strategy to know that hasn't been clear up to this point! Thank you!

Barbara

Yep, Barbara, you are definitely getting it and not just multiples but more traited dominant furs for traiting up and pulling out TRs. It wasn't you who implied or said it didn't make a difference and we get that you are just trying to learn. Personally I think it is awesome that you are asking questions and really trying to digest the conversation. It is newer breeders like you, Barbara, that are trying to learn all the nuances that cause threads like this to be started. We, as a community, want to help you learn best practices.

The reason I said it doesn't matter is because I haven't run into issues 'losing traits', or picking the incorrect 'piles of Salt & Peppers' in my cattery by using a more recessive trait to pull out a TR. I get what everyone is saying and it makes sense, but to me it's the long way of breeding, however I can see how it would be useful as a safer approach. It's personal preference.

I think it's equally damaging to tell someone new that they can never pull out a TR using anything but a dominant trait. I've used this method, too, which is also part of my response that it hasn't mattered for me. At the end of the day it's 50/50, and the process takes time. I, however, get there quicker breeding more recessive traits to the TR.

[Tad Carlucci]

Quote:I think it's equally damaging to tell someone new that they can never pull out a TR using anything but a dominant trait.

Remember, in this discussion, you only have ONE cat with the new True Recessive, so you have no choice: ALL choices are dominant to your goal.

Quote: I, however, get there quicker breeding more recessive traits to the TR.

To be clear: You mean you like more recessive traits which are dominant to the True Recessive since there are NO traits more recessive than the current True Recessive.

---

When designing a breeding program there are only three choices:

* More recessive
* Equal to
* More dominant

How much more recessive or more dominant does NOT matter. Anything which first the criteria will work. All which fit the criteria work equally well.

Much of the discussion has been about approaches which have various other effects and how your choices help you wend your way through them.

[anna Acanthus]

(02-12-2014 08:55 AM)Zevara Resident Wrote:  I think it's equally damaging to tell someone new that they can never pull out a TR using anything but a dominant trait.

This is not AT ALL what any of us are suggesting.

The object of this thread is to show that it is practically impossible to breed a True Recessive hidden behind the next most recessive UNLESS you have :
A - a partner with the same hidden and shown or,
B - a partner with the shown True Recessive.

[Kayleigh McMillan]

Well yes it is possible ofcourse with much luck and pretty much blindfolded.
There is no point of reference to see if the TR has passed though or if the shown trait of the TR passed if they are that close to eachother.
I wouldn't even mind opening a Salt & Peper with a hidden Snowshoe Cream if I hadn't a Snowshoe Cream shown to pull it with even if someone gave it to me as a present.
To me that is a waste of time and resources.
Let alone I can't even use my valued traiters in the more dominant range to make myself a nice set of siblings with the by me desired traits which eventually throw me the Cream with all the goodies I want.
In that sense the more dominant the cat that is hiding the Cream the better as I have a complete range of traiters to handpick exactly that traits I want my ultimate Cream to have.
I just don't like to be limited either I want to make my own Cream the way I like it and not how I have to because it is hidden behind a very recessive kitten which narrows the chances to be creative in what the outcome will be.

[Zevara Resident]

(02-12-2014 10:17 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  

Quote:I think it's equally damaging to tell someone new that they can never pull out a TR using anything but a dominant trait.

Remember, in this discussion, you only have ONE cat with the new True Recessive, so you have no choice: ALL choices are dominant to your goal.

Quote: I, however, get there quicker breeding more recessive traits to the TR.

To be clear: You mean you like more recessive traits which are dominant to the True Recessive since there are NO traits more recessive than the current True Recessive.

---

When designing a breeding program there are only three choices:

* More recessive
* Equal to
* More dominant

How much more recessive or more dominant does NOT matter. Anything which first the criteria will work. All which fit the criteria work equally well.

Much of the discussion has been about approaches which have various other effects and how your choices help you wend your way through them.

Yes, your clarification is correct and that's all I was trying to say by saying it doesn't matter.