How can you tell for sure what a kitty is hiding?

[Thorn Witrial]

Hi folks.

I've seen many people talk about kitties hiding traits, and seen kitties for sale that say they are hiding such and such trait. I've also poured over the google breeding chart docs. I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this.

Can anyone explain it more simply? I'm tired of feeling thick. ^_^;;

Thanks.

[Tad Carlucci]

It's a process of logical deduction, and can get quite complex.

The basic rule, though, is simple: you're "looking for something different."

The parents show two furs (for instance, and which may be the same fur, it doesn't matter) and the offspring shows "something different," you know one of the parents "hides" exactly that something different, and the other hides it, or something more recessive (which can be what they show).

By repeated application of that simple rule, and knowledge of which (in this case) furs are dominant over the others, you can deduce what is hidden in the parents and/or the offspring, as well as determine the dominance relationship between furs you've never seen before.

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Example 1:

Both parents show "Genesis - Coco"; the offspring shows "American Shorthair - Red Tabby". One parent, we don't yet know which, hides exactly "American Shorthair - Red Tabby". If you did not yet know "Genesis - Coco" is dominant over "American Shorthair - Red Tabby", this proves it. (Not that we needed to prove it in this case: KittyCatS! told us this, way back In The Beginning).

Example 2:

Change one parent to mate with a "Russian - White" and say the offspring from this is another "Russian - White". We know (since KittyCatS! said so) that "Genesis - Coco" is dominant over "Russian - White", so we can deduce that the "Genesis - Coco" parent hides "Russian - White" or something more recessive than "Russian - White". If we know (say, from experience, or by checking Saga's charts [same thing, just borrowing someone else's experiences]) that "American Shorthair - Red Tabby" is dominant over "Russian - White" this eliminates that "Genesis - Coco" parent as being the source of the "American Shorthair - Red Tabby" in the first example.

That leaves the other parent from the first example as the only possible source of "American Shorthair - Red Tabby".

It also tells us that that "American Shorthair - Red Tabby" box, still unopened, hides either "Russian - White" or something more recessive than "Russian - White"

[Thorn Witrial]

Thanks Tad! Also, I'm annoyed at you for making that build a cat website! It's like crack. CRACK.

I've now got four breeding projects going because of it. ;-P

(but really, it's awesome)

(08-13-2013 07:27 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  It's a process of logical deduction, and can get quite complex.

The basic rule, though, is simple: you're "looking for something different."

The parents show two furs (for instance, and which may be the same fur, it doesn't matter) and the offspring shows "something different," you know one of the parents "hides" exactly that something different, and the other hides it, or something more recessive (which can be what they show).

By repeated application of that simple rule, and knowledge of which (in this case) furs are dominant over the others, you can deduce what is hidden in the parents and/or the offspring, as well as determine the dominance relationship between furs you've never seen before.

[anna Acanthus]

To try make it more simple to understand, the first golden rule is that any given trait will be hiding either the same or a more recessive.
A more dominant can never be hiding behind a more recessive.
Any given trait can only be hiding one other, and no more

I suggest that you open the pedigree of one of your kitties on one page and Saga's trait docs on another, you'll soon be able to work it all out for yourself.

i do realise that theres a whatsit load of seemingly indigestable info about breeding but once you get your mind around this basic concept, all the rest will fall into place.

[Liriel Garnet]

(08-14-2013 01:01 AM)anna acanthus Wrote:  To try make it more simple to understand, the first golden rule is that any given trait will be hiding either the same or a more recessive.
A more dominant can never be hiding behind a more recessive.
Any given trait can only be hiding one other, and no more

I suggest that you open the pedigree of one of your kitties on one page and Saga's trait docs on another, you'll soon be able to work it all out for yourself.

i do realise that theres a whatsit load of seemingly indigestable info about breeding but once you get your mind around this basic concept, all the rest will fall into place.

There are also two documents on saga's site that are a great source of info for beginning breeders. One is called 'trait talk transcript', the other is called 'KittyCatS Basics - for beginers' ... have a read through those if you can. Those two documents were responsible for a total turnaround in my breeding after i read them. (Callie sent me a folder containing those files one day LONG ago when I was frustrated with my cats not giving me what i wanted).

You might also look down in the Education forums at the bottom. There are classes and mentor programs that might interest you as well. Best of luck!!

[anna Acanthus]

I did want to try just to get that basic info in as it's the most important thing to grasp when new to breeding KCs and often the 'trait talk transcript' can make people glaze over rather when first confronted . I know i had to read a few times to get my head around them even tho i've been breeding since the beginning of KCs. Best to start with the 'KittyCatS Basics - for beginers'

But of course the next stop is Liriels classes : 5 PM Thursdays and 9 AM Sundays @ http://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/Is.../42/224/22

*there are allways other classes of course but as Liriels are the only ones i've attended a couple of times i know i can safely and highly recommend them.

Anyhow, looks like Thorn is picking it all up pretty fast and will very soon be producing wonder kitties.

[Thorn Witrial]

:-)

Thank you, ladies. I have read those documents, after getting some basics in chat with people and I'm just fascinated. It's a glorious puzzle and I'm very excited to see what will be happening in a week when the kitties I picked and matched (after I had a better idea of what I was doing) will produce their first kittens.