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Survey KittyCat market prices - Printable Version

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Survey KittyCat market prices - OFeenyO Resident - 12-27-2021 03:47 PM

Survey to all breeders,

For a long time I have been dealing with a very important question that I would like to ask all breeders.
Your opinion is very important to me. We all have a common hobby that we pursue here and that is our cat breeding,
in which we put a lot of love and time to breed as beautiful cats as possible and also like to share and offer
these cats with everyone else and Purchase for further breeding in our own ranks.

Now I come to my concern:

It's about the pricing of our kittens that are offered on the Torgon Market. There have probably been discussions about cheap prices on the market
and also in the shops that I would like to take up again here.

I have been observing cats on the Torgon market for some time now that are offered with 9 traits, relatively new receptive properties for 50 linden trees and plenty of them.

I now ask myself how far this should go? All breeders who have to provide their cats with food and milk can certainly no longer afford this in the long term, unless
you can afford to invest your own euros or dollars in amounts.

For breeders who finance their cat breeding from the sales of their cats and have no money to continue to feed them, if this continues, they will have to give up their breeding.

I asked for insight in a personal conversation, unfortunately without success. There were answers in the conversation such as:

I have so many cats, my cattery is full of them
It's a game here for fun and I don't want to earn money from it
I'm sorry, but I'm not going to make my cats expensive.
I think everyone can do what they want here, it's just a game, I don't want to earn any money with it, I just want to have fun

Certainly everyone can do what they want here in Second Life, but I think that with such a beautiful hobby that we love and live together in Second Life, one should keep together and let the market revive.

Thank you for your attention, I would be very happy to hear what you think about it.

Kind regards from Feeny


RE: Survey KittyCat market prices - Ellen Ireland - 12-28-2021 07:33 AM

I've given up selling my cats for now, except for the occasional auction. The market is just too swamped. I do still buy, sometimes directly and sometimes through alts, and I recognize the fact that I am losing money at this hobby and I have to accept that. It hasn't been financially self-sustaining, much less profitable, but it is enjoyable and that is why I still do it.


RE: Survey KittyCat market prices - Tad Carlucci - 12-28-2021 09:47 AM

Fixed demand and infinite supply means prices will always tend to zero.

That's just how breedables work until someone decides to add disease and predation to the program to reduce the supply.


RE: Survey KittyCat market prices - Devilness Chant - 12-31-2021 11:17 AM

(12-28-2021 09:47 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  Fixed demand and infinite supply means prices will always tend to zero.

That's just how breedables work until someone decides to add disease and predation to the program to reduce the supply.
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Mangerie was one of the ways I think KC came up with to combat the flooded market and the drag on their servers that have to house billions of boxes.

A very dear friend just gave me a number of collection kitties. (there is a Santa) But finding prices for them has been exhausting. I know it's a bit from the trait pricing topic, but omg, I've checked Torgons and a few shops. One thing I've noticed is a number of them don't have any prices.
I think ppl are kinda afraid to put a price on some things because it would be too high or too low?
I gave up on making anything on breeding a long time ago, but it is something I enjoy. I've been opening some old boxes and old collections. My cattery has gone from 20 or more pairs (years ago) down to 3 to 5 pairs. I spend a little of my rl money for rents, and kitty upkeep. And I'm enjoying it.
Price what you're comfortable with. I did buy a number of the inexpensive boxes to get a Giraffe kitty and I have to say, with no offense to the sellers, they're not new traits or high price kitties, if that makes you feel a little better. Some were really nice and I thought should have gone for more, but like we all know the market is flooded.


RE: Survey KittyCat market prices - ShannonSpoonhunter Resident - 12-31-2021 11:22 AM

(12-28-2021 09:47 AM)Tad Carlucci Wrote:  Fixed demand and infinite supply means prices will always tend to zero.

That's just how breedables work until someone decides to add disease and predation to the program to reduce the supply.


Disease and predation would be way too macabre for cute pixel pets that people get attached to.

However, I think having the possibility of sterility in any given (bred) box would be interesting, particularly if the odds increased with number of generations of breeding/backbreeding without introducing a new set of genes into the line.


RE: Survey KittyCat market prices - Ivy Norsk - 12-31-2021 12:39 PM

Shannon Wrote:However, I think having the possibility of sterility in any given (bred) box would be interesting, particularly if the odds increased with number of generations of breeding/backbreeding without introducing a new set of genes into the line.

Oh God No.
It used to be that we could teach genetics of the cats and we could tell people about odds: the 4 types of throws possible 25% chance for each, including a 25% chance of getting a double-recessive. Those days are long gone and the algorithms just keep getting more destructive (yes I understand there was some weighting from the beginning, nobody could get fancie pink to pass). KittyCats has gone full-in algorithms for teeny odds to get some new trait, so that a person is lucky to just get one cat showing desired traits in an entire run of breeding. And if that one box after 4 months turned out to be sterile? No.

People were never very keen on whiskers even in the beginning.. going for eyes and furs. Now, getting people to learn project breeding when the results are so unlikely is a very hard sell. No wonder people are just bonking cats and selling them for 50L. I have heard Headquarters express amazement that I spent 7 months working on getting a Foxie Slate just the way I wanted it. They don't understand that it takes that long or longer to create a real 9T line with matching whiskers all the time.

I can't help but think that the hobby would be healthier if making project cats was easier and more reliable like baking chocolate chip cookies instead of oh-my-god-will-the-damn-cats-throw-the-smoke-whisker casino lottery model. The cats on the grid might look a lot better too. Yes the very rare traits would spread more easily - why is that such a bad thing? Especially since it all comes at the expense of reliable breeding models.

It would be better if KittyCats just put out an end-of-year bounty on turning in massive numbers of cats - in addition to having the menagerie cats.


RE: Survey KittyCat market prices - Tad Carlucci - 12-31-2021 01:05 PM

In no particular order:

*) The server cost, per cat, is almost non-existent. And it doesn't change for boxes, lives, in-world, Cattery or Menagerie. The cost is one record per cat. So, sure, there are millions of records. But the database can handle it and is nowhere near the size where it's much of an issue.

*) Breeding is STILL a 50/50 thing. Some traits (size, for instance) are still random and cannot be bred for. KittyCatS did play around with different odds for Confetti but that experiment was a abject failure and I'm amazed anyone is still working on Confetti.

*) To me, the Menagerie is a form of predation. I suppose what I should say is non-optional disease or predation. Planned sterility could fall into that category. The response, however, is exactly why nobody is doing population control ... the players won't accept it.


RE: Survey KittyCat market prices - Devilness Chant - 01-02-2022 09:42 AM

(12-31-2021 12:39 PM)Ivy Norsk Wrote:  
Shannon Wrote:However, I think having the possibility of sterility in any given (bred) box would be interesting, particularly if the odds increased with number of generations of breeding/backbreeding without introducing a new set of genes into the line.

Oh God No.
It used to be that we could teach genetics of the cats and we could tell people about odds: the 4 types of throws possible 25% chance for each, including a 25% chance of getting a double-recessive. Those days are long gone and the algorithms just keep getting more destructive (yes I understand there was some weighting from the beginning, nobody could get fancie pink to pass). KittyCats has gone full-in algorithms for teeny odds to get some new trait, so that a person is lucky to just get one cat showing desired traits in an entire run of breeding. And if that one box after 4 months turned out to be sterile? No.

People were never very keen on whiskers even in the beginning.. going for eyes and furs. Now, getting people to learn project breeding when the results are so unlikely is a very hard sell. No wonder people are just bonking cats and selling them for 50L. I have heard Headquarters express amazement that I spent 7 months working on getting a Foxie Slate just the way I wanted it. They don't understand that it takes that long or longer to create a real 9T line with matching whiskers all the time.

I can't help but think that the hobby would be healthier if making project cats was easier and more reliable like baking chocolate chip cookies instead of oh-my-god-will-the-damn-cats-throw-the-smoke-whisker casino lottery model. The cats on the grid might look a lot better too. Yes the very rare traits would spread more easily - why is that such a bad thing? Especially since it all comes at the expense of reliable breeding models.

It would be better if KittyCats just put out an end-of-year bounty on turning in massive numbers of cats - in addition to having the menagerie cats.

A friend of mine caught heck for repeating something I told her, so I guess I'm going to catch heck too.
The last time I left sl and gave up breeding was because more and more ppl that were new and didn't understand breeding were getting all these new traits out of starters. Back in the day we had to work to pull new traits that were always the most recesive. But that also meant the market ended up flooded with the same looking kitties pretty much. Because recessive traits popped out like crazy. So I think changing breeding was a good idea for then. It meant new ppl could enjoy the thrill of a new trait and foxies weren't flooding the market. lol
Since I've been back I tried to move a wild tail from a cream and white to a natural. I back bred inbred, did everything that always worked long ago. The tail only passed a few times on a cream and white, (hiding the natural) and a few times the natural passed without the tail. After two or three months I gave up and nuked the lot. But now when I see a trait I would love to put on something, I just pass it by, which might be one reason for the market not moving well?
I don't understand the breeding methods anymore so I just play with my starters and some older kitties I bred and am enjoying that.
I do have to say, KC has put out a wonderful product and has the best customer service of any company I've ever seen, rl and sl. They always come up with new and creative ideas that still make it fun.
As far as pricing and the market, it's always been a fickle thing, I don't think that will ever change.


RE: Survey KittyCat market prices - Kikii Littlepaws - 01-03-2022 08:26 AM

Key word in this discussion, I think, is hobby. And most of the time, our hobbies cost us money, rather than make us money. My dad is into RC car racing - even competes in races with cash prizes. (Or sometimes, part/kit prizes.) His hobby still doesn't actually put him in the black on his ledger, but it keeps him happy and brings him much joy and relaxation.

KittyCatS is certainly a breedable in Second Life, but in my years of participating with KittyCatS, I've noticed that they are rarely marketed as a breedable, but instead as a pet that can breed. ♥ A lot of us have them just for the joy of having them, and see the breeding as a perk rather than the point. For me, and obviously I can't speak for everyone, I find this to be an attitude that retains the joy of it and keeps me sane. It keeps it fun and engaging, rather than allowing it to become something that stresses me out. For this reason, I don't give one shred of a care what anyone else sells their kitties for. I set mine for what I see as fair, what I would pay if someone else was trying to sell the cat to me, and I call it good. If it doesn't sell, eventually I either decide to hoard it or send it to menagerie.

I do understand that if someone can find a nice cat for L$50 for example, that it means some other cat of similar stat/look/appeal won't sell at its owner's asking price, but that's the way of a free market, and I think that's something we can all benefit from keeping in mind. It's perfectly fair if Person A doesn't want to sell their cat at a loss, but it's also perfectly fair if Person B is willing to. (I also try to keep in mind as much as I can that I'm not walking in anyone else's shoes, and I never know what reasons someone has for what they personally choose to do.)

If someone isn't making profit, or breaking even on their kittens, they can always try cutting back on number of live cats at a single time. Myself, I have less than 20. I paid for their kibble for a month with one sale yesterday, at auction. If all the other boxes I have right now didn't sell at all, and I sent them to menagerie, I'd still come out without being out of pocket, because I'd at least be able to afford another month off the menagerie dollars. Again, this is just something that keeps things stress-free for me. If it became stressful to me, it wouldn't be very much of a hobby, after all.

I guess the TL;DR of what I'm saying is that I find it most fun and easiest for me to just not worry about what anyone else is doing.


RE: Survey KittyCat market prices - Songdog Woolley - 01-03-2022 08:10 PM

I've been doing this a while, and have wistful nostalgia of the days when just HAVING a 9T cat was special, and every Mega brought a bidwar at an auction.

But as Tad says, it's really simple economics that the prices get gradually lower. As a breeder who keeps current with market trends, it's easy to be frustrated. I breed because I love to do it - the combination of cuteness and geekiness is irresistible! That said, it really is disheartening to see 9T boxes being sold for tiny, tiny amounts - less than it took to produce those boxes. But there is no way to police this - which is a GOOD THING. It can't be "legislated", nor should it. And as Kikii suggested, we can't assume all who ever breed KittyCats are doing it for the same reasons or have the same ideas about it as we do.

I'm in the middle of a New Year Cattery Purge as we speak. I've sent a lot of kitties to menagerie, enough in the last few days to purchase 6 20-packs for the Cattery, and I haven't cracked the surface. Of course, I've been hoarding for a long time Big Grin
At any rate, this is how I choose to handle my own glut of kitties, saving only the best for breeding and selling. And I won't have to worry about the Cattery running out of food and milk anytime soon Cool